1
00:00:06,793 --> 00:00:08,921
Throughout the history of mankind,
2
00:00:08,921 --> 00:00:12,384
three little words have sent poets
to the blank page,
3
00:00:12,384 --> 00:00:14,762
philosophers to the Agora,
4
00:00:14,762 --> 00:00:16,796
and seekers to the oracles:
5
00:00:17,102 --> 00:00:19,099
"Who am I?"
6
00:00:19,099 --> 00:00:22,723
>From the ancient Greek aphorism
inscribed on the Temple of Apollo,
7
00:00:22,723 --> 00:00:24,459
"Know thyself,"
8
00:00:24,459 --> 00:00:27,192
to The Who's rock anthem, "Who Are You?"
9
00:00:27,192 --> 00:00:30,204
philosophers, psychologists, academics,
10
00:00:30,312 --> 00:00:34,514
scientists, artists,
theologians and politicians
11
00:00:34,514 --> 00:00:38,433
have all tackled the subject of identity.
12
00:00:38,433 --> 00:00:42,990
Their hypotheses are widely varied
and lack significant consensus.
13
00:00:42,099 --> 00:00:43,160
These are smart, creative people,
14
00:00:44,006 --> 00:00:48,100
so what's so hard about coming up
with the right answer?
15
00:00:49,054 --> 00:00:51,073
One challenge certainly lies
16
00:00:51,559 --> 00:00:56,301
with the complex concept
of the persistence of identity.
17
00:00:56,301 --> 00:00:58,490
Which you is who?
18
00:00:58,049 --> 00:00:59,654
The person you are today?
19
00:01:00,095 --> 00:01:01,383
Five years ago?
20
00:01:01,383 --> 00:01:03,402
Who you'll be in 50 years?
21
00:01:03,402 --> 00:01:04,500
And when is "am"?
22
00:01:05,382 --> 00:01:06,875
This week?
23
00:01:06,875 --> 00:01:07,888
Today?
24
00:01:08,005 --> 00:01:09,143
This hour?
25
00:01:09,143 --> 00:01:10,531
This second?
26
00:01:10,531 --> 00:01:13,390
And which aspect of you is "I"?
27
00:01:13,039 --> 00:01:14,743
Are you your physical body?
28
00:01:15,094 --> 00:01:16,695
Your thoughts and feelings?
29
00:01:16,695 --> 00:01:18,368
Your actions?
30
00:01:18,368 --> 00:01:22,153
These murky waters of abstract logic
are tricky to navigate,
31
00:01:22,153 --> 00:01:25,752
and so it's probably fitting
that to demonstrate the complexity,
32
00:01:25,752 --> 00:01:31,373
the Greek historian Plutarch
used the story of a ship.
33
00:01:31,373 --> 00:01:34,207
How are you "I"?
34
00:01:34,207 --> 00:01:38,669
As the tale goes, Theseus, the mythical
founder King of Athens,
35
00:01:38,669 --> 00:01:43,161
single-handedly slayed
the evil Minotaur at Crete,
36
00:01:43,161 --> 00:01:45,757
then returned home on a ship.
37
00:01:45,757 --> 00:01:47,656
To honor this heroic feat,
38
00:01:47,656 --> 00:01:54,394
for 1000 years Athenians painstakingly
maintained his ship in the harbor,
39
00:01:54,394 --> 00:01:58,285
and annually reenacted his voyage.
40
00:01:58,285 --> 00:02:01,319
Whenever a part of the ship
was worn or damaged,
41
00:02:01,319 --> 00:02:05,592
it was replaced with an identical piece
of the same material
42
00:02:05,592 --> 00:02:09,439
until, at some point,
no original parts remained.
43
00:02:09,439 --> 00:02:11,372
Plutarch noted the Ship of Theseus
44
00:02:11,372 --> 00:02:14,549
was an example
of the philosophical paradox
45
00:02:14,549 --> 00:02:17,667
revolving around
the persistence of identity.
46
00:02:17,667 --> 00:02:20,305
How can every single part
of something be replaced,
47
00:02:20,305 --> 00:02:24,022
yet it still remains the same thing?
48
00:02:24,022 --> 00:02:26,053
Let's imagine there are two ships:
49
00:02:26,053 --> 00:02:29,299
the ship that Theseus
docked in Athens, Ship A,
50
00:02:29,299 --> 00:02:35,101
and the ship sailed by the Athenians
1000 years later, Ship B.
51
00:02:35,101 --> 00:02:40,517
Very simply, our question is this:
does A equal B?
52
00:02:40,517 --> 00:02:45,408
Some would say that for 1000 years
there has been only one Ship of Theseus,
53
00:02:45,408 --> 00:02:48,493
and because the changes made to it
happened gradually,
54
00:02:48,493 --> 00:02:53,667
it never at any point in time
stopped being the legendary ship.
55
00:02:53,667 --> 00:02:55,673
Though they have absolutely
no parts in common,
56
00:02:56,267 --> 00:03:01,200
the two ships are numerically identical,
meaning one and the same,
57
00:03:01,002 --> 00:03:03,574
so A equals B.
58
00:03:03,772 --> 00:03:08,981
However, others could argue
that Theseus never set foot on Ship B,
59
00:03:08,981 --> 00:03:12,698
and his presence on the ship
is an essential qualitative property
60
00:03:12,698 --> 00:03:14,762
of the Ship of Theseus.
61
00:03:14,762 --> 00:03:17,169
It cannot survive without him.
62
00:03:17,169 --> 00:03:20,478
So, though the two ships
are numerically identical,
63
00:03:20,478 --> 00:03:23,295
they are not qualitatively identical.
64
00:03:23,295 --> 00:03:26,993
Thus, A does not equal B.
65
00:03:26,993 --> 00:03:29,046
But what happens
when we consider this twist?
66
00:03:29,523 --> 00:03:33,605
What if, as each piece
of the original ship was cast off,
67
00:03:33,605 --> 00:03:38,744
somebody collected them all,
and rebuilt the entire original ship?
68
00:03:38,744 --> 00:03:43,783
When it was finished, undeniably
two physical ships would exist:
69
00:03:43,783 --> 00:03:45,798
the one that's docked in Athens,
70
00:03:45,798 --> 00:03:48,242
and the one in some guy's backyard.
71
00:03:48,242 --> 00:03:51,875
Each could lay claim to the title,
"The Ship of Theseus,"
72
00:03:51,875 --> 00:03:54,896
but only would could actually
be the real thing.
73
00:03:55,085 --> 00:03:56,374
So which one is it,
74
00:03:56,374 --> 00:03:59,583
and more importantly,
what does this have to do with you?
75
00:03:59,583 --> 00:04:01,727
Like the Ship of Theseus,
76
00:04:01,727 --> 00:04:05,420
you are a collection of constantly
changing parts:
77
00:04:05,042 --> 00:04:11,250
your physical body, mind, emotions,
circumstances, and even your quirks,
78
00:04:11,628 --> 00:04:16,629
always changing, but still in an amazing
and sometimes illogical way,
79
00:04:16,629 --> 00:04:19,074
you stay the same, too.
80
00:04:19,074 --> 00:04:24,431
This is one of the reasons that
the question, "Who am I?" is so complex.
81
00:04:24,431 --> 00:04:25,875
And in order to answer it,
82
00:04:25,875 --> 00:04:27,932
like so many great minds before you,
83
00:04:28,445 --> 00:04:33,897
you must be willing to dive into the
bottomless ocean of philosophical paradox.
84
00:04:33,897 --> 00:04:35,441
Or maybe you could just answer,
85
00:04:35,441 --> 00:04:40,809
"I am a legendary hero sailing
a powerful ship on an epic journey."
86
00:04:40,809 --> 00:04:42,434
That could work, too.
Chủ Nhật, 4 tháng 9, 2016
Thứ Năm, 26 tháng 5, 2016
The Poop Cycle
1
00:00:00,054 --> 00:00:00,059
Poop
2
00:00:01,004 --> 00:00:04,026
Most of us don't give a second thought to where it ends up after flushing
3
00:00:04,082 --> 00:00:06,116
but what if I told you that that very poo
4
00:00:07,016 --> 00:00:09,052
could be making its way back into your house
5
00:00:09,052 --> 00:00:10,114
without you ever noticing?
6
00:00:11,058 --> 00:00:13,080
For those unfamiliar
7
00:00:13,094 --> 00:00:16,136
once your food has been chewed, swallowed, chemically and physically broken down
8
00:00:17,036 --> 00:00:19,128
and the useful nutrients have been absorbed into your body
9
00:00:20,004 --> 00:00:22,078
the rest is gracefully discarded as waste
10
00:00:23,014 --> 00:00:25,014
This waste then gets combined with a
11
00:00:25,014 --> 00:00:27,014
mixture of with a mixture of urine, rain, shower, sink
12
00:00:27,014 --> 00:00:29,014
and other household waters into your local
13
00:00:29,014 --> 00:00:31,014
sewer system which surprisingly
14
00:00:31,014 --> 00:00:33,014
contains mostly water and relatively
15
00:00:33,014 --> 00:00:35,014
little faeces like a big old
16
00:00:35,014 --> 00:00:37,014
bowl of soup with very few vegetables
17
00:00:37,014 --> 00:00:39,014
After passing through potentially miles
18
00:00:39,014 --> 00:00:41,014
of pipes, the soup reaches the sewage
19
00:00:41,014 --> 00:00:43,014
treatment plant and is initially screened
20
00:00:43,014 --> 00:00:45,014
and skimmed to separate out things like
21
00:00:45,014 --> 00:00:47,014
sand, grit and pebbles.
22
00:00:47,014 --> 00:00:50,038
More importantly, this is where that cellphone you accidentally dropped down the toilet
23
00:00:50,054 --> 00:00:54,063
gets caught along with condoms? and other stuff you thought would be a good idea to toss down the drain.
24
00:00:55,076 --> 00:00:57,108
Which by the way wasn't a good idea.
25
00:00:58,008 --> 00:01:01,030
For every piece of trash or item you throw down the toilet
26
00:01:01,003 --> 00:01:03,091
the more likely there will be a blockage in the system which has to be removed
27
00:01:04,054 --> 00:01:05,090
by hand..
28
00:01:05,009 --> 00:01:06,033
And no-one wants that.
29
00:01:07,014 --> 00:01:09,014
The pebbles and grit, on the other hand, are
30
00:01:09,014 --> 00:01:11,058
dried, cleaned, and reused for things like construction
31
00:01:11,064 --> 00:01:13,064
Perhaps contributing to the creation
32
00:01:13,064 --> 00:01:14,146
of your ivory throne.
33
00:01:15,046 --> 00:01:17,062
The remaining poopy mixture is then left still
34
00:01:17,062 --> 00:01:18,090
In a giant tank.
35
00:01:18,096 --> 00:01:20,096
And thanks to the fundamental properties of both
36
00:01:20,096 --> 00:01:22,096
oil and grease as non-polar substances,
37
00:01:23,004 --> 00:01:24,011
which don't mix with water,
38
00:01:24,074 --> 00:01:26,074
it's relatively easy to skim them off.
39
00:01:26,074 --> 00:01:28,074
Still, you really shouldn't be putting
40
00:01:28,074 --> 00:01:30,074
it down the drain, as it can clog pipes
41
00:01:30,074 --> 00:01:32,074
and overwhelm the intricate system.
42
00:01:32,074 --> 00:01:34,074
What's left now is some sludge and a
43
00:01:34,074 --> 00:01:36,098
smelly liquid that looks like chocolate milk.
44
00:01:37,002 --> 00:01:38,070
Mmm, chocolate milk!
45
00:01:38,088 --> 00:01:40,104
And that's what it tastes like to the millions of bacteria
46
00:01:41,004 --> 00:01:42,088
which are set loose to feast on this
47
00:01:42,088 --> 00:01:44,134
mixture. They literally eat the pathogens
48
00:01:45,034 --> 00:01:46,060
out of the liquid
49
00:01:46,006 --> 00:01:48,006
Most of these bacteria are aerobic,
50
00:01:48,006 --> 00:01:50,006
meaning they require oxygen to function,
51
00:01:50,006 --> 00:01:51,032
just like humans,
52
00:01:51,086 --> 00:01:53,086
so the tank is pumped full of oxygen.
53
00:01:53,086 --> 00:01:54,172
This water is then disinfected and
54
00:01:55,072 --> 00:01:57,086
reintroduced back into the environment.
55
00:01:57,086 --> 00:01:58,093
The remaining sludge on the other hand,
56
00:01:59,056 --> 00:02:01,056
Containing mostly solid waste matter,
57
00:02:01,056 --> 00:02:03,056
goes through a final treatment with another set
58
00:02:03,056 --> 00:02:05,056
of bacteria. These bacteria produce
59
00:02:05,056 --> 00:02:07,056
a variety of by-products including methane
60
00:02:07,056 --> 00:02:09,056
gas, which in turn is used to power
61
00:02:09,056 --> 00:02:11,056
the sewage treatment plant.
62
00:02:11,056 --> 00:02:12,134
So your poop powers the plant that
63
00:02:13,034 --> 00:02:14,100
processes your poop.
64
00:02:15,000 --> 00:02:17,000
After eating everything, the bacteria die
65
00:02:17,000 --> 00:02:19,002
and create something known as Biosolid.
66
00:02:19,002 --> 00:02:20,070
After all is said and done,
67
00:02:20,007 --> 00:02:22,010
The remaining, nutrient rich faeces and Biosolid
68
00:02:23,000 --> 00:02:25,000
can be used to make compost to
69
00:02:25,000 --> 00:02:27,000
enrich dry land, or used as fertilisers,
70
00:02:27,000 --> 00:02:29,022
which ultimately help grow vegetation.
71
00:02:29,022 --> 00:02:31,022
Vegetation which makes its way
72
00:02:31,022 --> 00:02:33,022
into your house and ultimately
73
00:02:33,022 --> 00:02:34,023
into your mouth.
74
00:02:34,032 --> 00:02:36,032
And so begins the cycle of poop,
75
00:02:36,032 --> 00:02:38,034
All over again
76
00:02:39,002 --> 00:02:41,100
This episode of ASAP Science is supported by squarespace.com
77
00:02:42,014 --> 00:02:50,058
If you have a story to tell, whether it is about starting a new business or sharing photos from our recent adventure Squarespace give you a all in one platform to brig these stories to live online.
78
00:02:50,058 --> 00:02:55,061
with modern templates, mobile responsive designs, simple drag and drop tools and 24 hours support
79
00:02:55,088 --> 00:02:59,100
you can create professional website or online portfolio in just a few minutes
80
00:03:00,018 --> 00:03:06,072
for free trial and 10% off your 1st purchase on new accounts head over to: squarespace.com and use the code Asap8
81
00:03:07,024 --> 00:03:10,029
thanks again to squarespace for supporting this episode of Asap science
82
00:03:10,074 --> 00:03:10,152
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMIHFR_P7QY
00:00:00,054 --> 00:00:00,059
Poop
2
00:00:01,004 --> 00:00:04,026
Most of us don't give a second thought to where it ends up after flushing
3
00:00:04,082 --> 00:00:06,116
but what if I told you that that very poo
4
00:00:07,016 --> 00:00:09,052
could be making its way back into your house
5
00:00:09,052 --> 00:00:10,114
without you ever noticing?
6
00:00:11,058 --> 00:00:13,080
For those unfamiliar
7
00:00:13,094 --> 00:00:16,136
once your food has been chewed, swallowed, chemically and physically broken down
8
00:00:17,036 --> 00:00:19,128
and the useful nutrients have been absorbed into your body
9
00:00:20,004 --> 00:00:22,078
the rest is gracefully discarded as waste
10
00:00:23,014 --> 00:00:25,014
This waste then gets combined with a
11
00:00:25,014 --> 00:00:27,014
mixture of with a mixture of urine, rain, shower, sink
12
00:00:27,014 --> 00:00:29,014
and other household waters into your local
13
00:00:29,014 --> 00:00:31,014
sewer system which surprisingly
14
00:00:31,014 --> 00:00:33,014
contains mostly water and relatively
15
00:00:33,014 --> 00:00:35,014
little faeces like a big old
16
00:00:35,014 --> 00:00:37,014
bowl of soup with very few vegetables
17
00:00:37,014 --> 00:00:39,014
After passing through potentially miles
18
00:00:39,014 --> 00:00:41,014
of pipes, the soup reaches the sewage
19
00:00:41,014 --> 00:00:43,014
treatment plant and is initially screened
20
00:00:43,014 --> 00:00:45,014
and skimmed to separate out things like
21
00:00:45,014 --> 00:00:47,014
sand, grit and pebbles.
22
00:00:47,014 --> 00:00:50,038
More importantly, this is where that cellphone you accidentally dropped down the toilet
23
00:00:50,054 --> 00:00:54,063
gets caught along with condoms? and other stuff you thought would be a good idea to toss down the drain.
24
00:00:55,076 --> 00:00:57,108
Which by the way wasn't a good idea.
25
00:00:58,008 --> 00:01:01,030
For every piece of trash or item you throw down the toilet
26
00:01:01,003 --> 00:01:03,091
the more likely there will be a blockage in the system which has to be removed
27
00:01:04,054 --> 00:01:05,090
by hand..
28
00:01:05,009 --> 00:01:06,033
And no-one wants that.
29
00:01:07,014 --> 00:01:09,014
The pebbles and grit, on the other hand, are
30
00:01:09,014 --> 00:01:11,058
dried, cleaned, and reused for things like construction
31
00:01:11,064 --> 00:01:13,064
Perhaps contributing to the creation
32
00:01:13,064 --> 00:01:14,146
of your ivory throne.
33
00:01:15,046 --> 00:01:17,062
The remaining poopy mixture is then left still
34
00:01:17,062 --> 00:01:18,090
In a giant tank.
35
00:01:18,096 --> 00:01:20,096
And thanks to the fundamental properties of both
36
00:01:20,096 --> 00:01:22,096
oil and grease as non-polar substances,
37
00:01:23,004 --> 00:01:24,011
which don't mix with water,
38
00:01:24,074 --> 00:01:26,074
it's relatively easy to skim them off.
39
00:01:26,074 --> 00:01:28,074
Still, you really shouldn't be putting
40
00:01:28,074 --> 00:01:30,074
it down the drain, as it can clog pipes
41
00:01:30,074 --> 00:01:32,074
and overwhelm the intricate system.
42
00:01:32,074 --> 00:01:34,074
What's left now is some sludge and a
43
00:01:34,074 --> 00:01:36,098
smelly liquid that looks like chocolate milk.
44
00:01:37,002 --> 00:01:38,070
Mmm, chocolate milk!
45
00:01:38,088 --> 00:01:40,104
And that's what it tastes like to the millions of bacteria
46
00:01:41,004 --> 00:01:42,088
which are set loose to feast on this
47
00:01:42,088 --> 00:01:44,134
mixture. They literally eat the pathogens
48
00:01:45,034 --> 00:01:46,060
out of the liquid
49
00:01:46,006 --> 00:01:48,006
Most of these bacteria are aerobic,
50
00:01:48,006 --> 00:01:50,006
meaning they require oxygen to function,
51
00:01:50,006 --> 00:01:51,032
just like humans,
52
00:01:51,086 --> 00:01:53,086
so the tank is pumped full of oxygen.
53
00:01:53,086 --> 00:01:54,172
This water is then disinfected and
54
00:01:55,072 --> 00:01:57,086
reintroduced back into the environment.
55
00:01:57,086 --> 00:01:58,093
The remaining sludge on the other hand,
56
00:01:59,056 --> 00:02:01,056
Containing mostly solid waste matter,
57
00:02:01,056 --> 00:02:03,056
goes through a final treatment with another set
58
00:02:03,056 --> 00:02:05,056
of bacteria. These bacteria produce
59
00:02:05,056 --> 00:02:07,056
a variety of by-products including methane
60
00:02:07,056 --> 00:02:09,056
gas, which in turn is used to power
61
00:02:09,056 --> 00:02:11,056
the sewage treatment plant.
62
00:02:11,056 --> 00:02:12,134
So your poop powers the plant that
63
00:02:13,034 --> 00:02:14,100
processes your poop.
64
00:02:15,000 --> 00:02:17,000
After eating everything, the bacteria die
65
00:02:17,000 --> 00:02:19,002
and create something known as Biosolid.
66
00:02:19,002 --> 00:02:20,070
After all is said and done,
67
00:02:20,007 --> 00:02:22,010
The remaining, nutrient rich faeces and Biosolid
68
00:02:23,000 --> 00:02:25,000
can be used to make compost to
69
00:02:25,000 --> 00:02:27,000
enrich dry land, or used as fertilisers,
70
00:02:27,000 --> 00:02:29,022
which ultimately help grow vegetation.
71
00:02:29,022 --> 00:02:31,022
Vegetation which makes its way
72
00:02:31,022 --> 00:02:33,022
into your house and ultimately
73
00:02:33,022 --> 00:02:34,023
into your mouth.
74
00:02:34,032 --> 00:02:36,032
And so begins the cycle of poop,
75
00:02:36,032 --> 00:02:38,034
All over again
76
00:02:39,002 --> 00:02:41,100
This episode of ASAP Science is supported by squarespace.com
77
00:02:42,014 --> 00:02:50,058
If you have a story to tell, whether it is about starting a new business or sharing photos from our recent adventure Squarespace give you a all in one platform to brig these stories to live online.
78
00:02:50,058 --> 00:02:55,061
with modern templates, mobile responsive designs, simple drag and drop tools and 24 hours support
79
00:02:55,088 --> 00:02:59,100
you can create professional website or online portfolio in just a few minutes
80
00:03:00,018 --> 00:03:06,072
for free trial and 10% off your 1st purchase on new accounts head over to: squarespace.com and use the code Asap8
81
00:03:07,024 --> 00:03:10,029
thanks again to squarespace for supporting this episode of Asap science
82
00:03:10,074 --> 00:03:10,152
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMIHFR_P7QY
Free To Choose 1980 - Vol. 06 What's Wrong with Our Schools? - Full Video
1
00:00:01,635 --> 00:00:03,871
Hello, I'm Robert McKenzie and welcome
2
00:00:03,871 --> 00:00:05,639
again to the University of Chicago.
3
00:00:05,639 --> 00:00:08,342
It was here in 1976, that Milton Friedman,
4
00:00:08,342 --> 00:00:09,776
professor of economics, learned that he
5
00:00:09,776 --> 00:00:10,978
had been awarded that year's
6
00:00:10,978 --> 00:00:13,146
Nobel Prize for Economic Science.
7
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Then university is in a sense his
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intellectual and professional home.
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That's why Free to Choose has been
10
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coming here the past several weeks.
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Now the subject tonight is education.
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And it's often pointed out that there is
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intense dissatisfaction in many quarters
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with the state of public educaion.
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Billions poured in of taxpayer's money.
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Yet too many youngsters leaving school
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without adequate skills in reading and other
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such equipment they'll need later on in life.
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Well now when that happens
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what can be done about it?
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Milton Friedman, himself a teacher
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most of his life has diagnosed the problem.
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And he believes he has a solution.
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As we'll see in this film.
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(opening music)
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MILTON FRIEDMAN: These youngsters are
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beginning another day at one of
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America's public schools, Hyde Park
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High School in Boston.
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What happens when they pass through
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those doors is a vivid illustration of some
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of the problems facing America's schools.
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They have to pass through metal detectors.
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They are faced by security guards
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looking for hidden weapons.
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They are watched over by armed police.
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Isn't that awful?
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What a way for kids to have to go to school,
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through metal detectors and to be searched.
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What can they conceivably learn
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under such circumstances?
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Nobody is happy with this kind of education.
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The taxpayers surely aren't.
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This isn't cheap education.
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After all, those uniformed policemen,
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those metal detectors have to be paid for.
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And what about the broken windows,
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the torn schoolbooks, and the
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smashed school equipment?
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The teachers who teach here don't like
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this kind of situation.
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The students don't like to
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come here to go to school.
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And most of all, the parents--
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they are the ones who get the worst deal.
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They pay taxes like the rest of us,
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and they are just as concerned about the
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kind of education that their kids get
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as the rest of us are.
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They know their kids are getting a bad
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education, but they feel trapped.
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Many of them can see no alternative
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but to continue sending their kids to
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schools like this.
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To go back to the beginning, it all started
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with the fine idea that every child should
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have a chance to learn his three Rs.
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Sometimes in June when it gets hot,
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the kids come out in the yard to do
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their lessons, all 15 of them,
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ages 5 to 13, along with their teacher.
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This is the last one-room schoolhouse
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still operating in the state of Vermont.
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That is the way it used to be.
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Parental control, parents choosing
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00:03:50,697 --> 00:03:53,166
the teacher, parents monitoring
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00:03:53,166 --> 00:03:55,802
the schooling, parents even getting together
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00:03:55,802 --> 00:03:58,071
and chipping in to paint the schoolhouse,
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00:03:58,071 --> 00:04:00,207
as they did here just a few weeks ago.
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00:04:01,007 --> 00:04:04,034
Parental concern is still here, as much in the
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00:04:04,277 --> 00:04:07,214
slums of the big cities as in bucolic Vermont.
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00:04:08,315 --> 00:04:10,951
But control by parents over the schooling
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00:04:10,951 --> 00:04:13,587
of their children is today the exception,
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00:04:13,587 --> 00:04:15,455
not the rule.
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00:04:15,455 --> 00:04:17,524
Increasingly, schools have come under the
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control of centralized administrations,
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00:04:19,926 --> 00:04:22,013
professional educators deciding what shall be
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00:04:22,796 --> 00:04:25,465
taught, who shall do the teaching, and even
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00:04:25,465 --> 00:04:28,472
what children shall go to what school.
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00:04:29,269 --> 00:04:31,538
The people who lose most from this system
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00:04:31,538 --> 00:04:34,040
are the poor and the disadvantaged
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00:04:34,004 --> 00:04:35,339
in the large cities.
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They are simply stuck.
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00:04:36,091 --> 00:04:37,826
They have no alternative.
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00:04:47,921 --> 00:04:49,322
Of course, if you are well off
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00:04:49,322 --> 00:04:50,690
you do have a choice.
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00:04:50,069 --> 00:04:52,171
You can send your child to a private school,
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00:04:52,792 --> 00:04:55,028
or you can move to an area where the
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public schools are excellent,
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00:04:56,563 --> 00:04:58,365
as the parents of many of these
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00:04:58,365 --> 00:04:59,766
students have done.
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These students are graduating from
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00:05:06,306 --> 00:05:08,608
Weston High School in one of Boston's
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00:05:08,608 --> 00:05:10,110
wealthier suburbs.
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00:05:12,646 --> 00:05:15,282
Their parents pay taxes instead of tuition,
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00:05:15,282 --> 00:05:17,184
and they certainly get better value for their
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money than do the parents in Hyde Park.
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00:05:20,053 --> 00:05:22,222
That is partly because they have kept a good
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00:05:22,222 --> 00:05:24,524
deal of control over the local schools,
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00:05:24,524 --> 00:05:26,927
and in the process, they have managed
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00:05:26,927 --> 00:05:28,862
to retain many of the virtues of the
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one-room schoolhouse.
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Students here, like Barbara King,
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00:05:39,339 --> 00:05:42,242
get the equivalent of a private education.
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00:05:43,243 --> 00:05:45,478
They have excellent recreational facilities.
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They have a teaching staff that is dedicated
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00:05:54,487 --> 00:05:56,723
and responsive to parents and students.
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There is an atmosphere which encourages
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learning, yet the cost per pupil here is no
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higher than in many of our inner city schools.
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The difference is that at Weston, it all goes
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for education, and that the parents
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00:06:14,307 --> 00:06:16,776
still retain a good deal of control.
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Unfortunately, most parents have lost control
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over how their tax money in spent.
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Avabelle goes to Hyde Park High.
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Her parents, too, want her to have a good
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education, but many of the students here are
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not interested in schooling, and the teachers,
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however dedicated, soon lose heart
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in an atmosphere like this.
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Avabelle's parents are certainly not getting
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value for their tax money.
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CAROLINE BELL, PARENT: I think it is a
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shame, really, that parents are being
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ripped off like we are.
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I am talking about parents like me that work
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every day, scuffle to try to make ends meet.
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We send our kids to school hoping that they
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will receive something that will benefit them
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in the future for when they go out here
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and compete in the job market.
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Unfortunately, none of that is taking place
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out at Hyde Park.
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FRIEDMAN: Children like Ava are being short-
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changed by a system that was
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designed to help.
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But there are ways to give all parents more
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say over their children's schooling.
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This is a fund-raising evening for a school
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supported by a voluntary organization,
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New York's Inner City Scholarship Fund.
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The prints that have brought people here
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have been loaned by a wealthy
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Japanese industrialist.
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Events like this have helped raise two million
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dollars to finance Catholic parochial
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schools in New York.
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00:08:07,887 --> 00:08:09,322
The people here are part of a
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long American tradition.
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The results of their private voluntary
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activities have been remarkable.
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This is one of the poorest neighborhoods
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in New York City: the Bronx.
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Yet this parochial school, supported by
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the fund, is a joy to visit.
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00:08:40,022 --> 00:08:42,724
The youngsters here from poor families are
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00:08:42,922 --> 00:08:44,969
at Saint John Christians because their
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parents have picked this school.
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And their parents are paying some of the
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costs from their own pockets.
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The children are well behaved,
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eager to learn.
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The teachers are dedicated.
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00:09:02,809 --> 00:09:05,645
The cost per pupil here is far less than in
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the public schools, yet on the average
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the children are two grades ahead.
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That is because teachers and parents are
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free to choose how the children
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shall be taught.
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Private money has replaced the tax money,
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and so control has been taken away from the
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bureaucrats and put back where it belongs.
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This doesn't work just for younger children.
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In the 60's, Harlem was devastated by riots.
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It was a hot bed of trouble.
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Many teenagers dropped out of school.
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00:09:42,882 --> 00:09:44,918
Groups of concerned parents and teachers
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decided to do something about it.
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They used private funds to take over
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empty stores, and they set up what
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00:09:50,557 --> 00:09:52,826
became known as storefront schools.
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One of the first and most successful
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was Harlem Prep.
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It was designed to cater to students for
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whom conventional education had failed.
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Many of the teachers didn't have the right
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pieces of paper to qualify for
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employment in public schools.
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That didn't stop them from
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doing a good job here.
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A lot of the students had been
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misfits and dropouts.
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Here they found the sort of
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teaching they wanted.
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After all, they had made a deliberate
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choice to come to Harlem Prep.
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It was a very successful school.
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Many students went on to college,
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and some to leading colleges.
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00:10:36,202 --> 00:10:37,770
But after some years, the school
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00:10:37,077 --> 00:10:38,379
ran short of cash.
213
00:10:39,072 --> 00:10:41,474
The board of education offered Ed Carpenter,
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00:10:41,474 --> 00:10:43,309
the head of the school and one of its
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00:10:43,309 --> 00:10:45,612
founders, tax money, provided he
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00:10:45,612 --> 00:10:47,680
would conform to their regulations.
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00:10:51,284 --> 00:10:53,753
After a long battle to preserve independence,
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00:10:53,753 --> 00:10:55,421
he finally gave in.
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00:10:55,421 --> 00:10:57,518
The school was taken over by bureaucrats.
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00:11:07,267 --> 00:11:08,201
ED CARPENTER, FORMER PRINCIPAL:
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I felt that a school
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00:11:08,968 --> 00:11:10,970
like Harlem Prep would certainly die
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and not prosper under the rigid bureaucracy
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of a board of education.
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We had to see what was going to happen.
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I didn't believe it was going to be good.
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00:11:20,046 --> 00:11:21,714
I am right. What has happened since we
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have come to the board of education is not
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all good -- it is not all bad --
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but it is more bad than good.
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FRIEDMAN: The school may not look
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different yet, but 30 of the
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00:11:35,061 --> 00:11:36,629
former teachers have gone.
234
00:11:36,629 --> 00:11:38,464
Ed Carpenter has resigned.
235
00:11:38,464 --> 00:11:40,600
The school is being moved to a
236
00:11:40,006 --> 00:11:41,641
traditional school building.
237
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No one, except maybe the bureaucrats,
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00:11:44,537 --> 00:11:47,340
is very optimistic about its future.
239
00:11:47,607 --> 00:11:49,842
Unfortunately, the strangling of successful
240
00:11:49,842 --> 00:11:53,079
experiments by bureaucrats is not unusual.
241
00:11:54,018 --> 00:11:56,053
The same thing happened in California,
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00:11:56,215 --> 00:11:58,418
at a place called Alum Rock.
243
00:11:58,651 --> 00:12:00,520
For three years parents at this school could
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00:12:00,052 --> 00:12:02,187
choose to send their children to any of
245
00:12:02,655 --> 00:12:05,058
several specially created mini-schools,
246
00:12:05,058 --> 00:12:06,960
each with a different curriculum.
247
00:12:07,627 --> 00:12:09,462
The experiment was designed to restore a
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00:12:09,462 --> 00:12:11,331
choice to those who were most closely
249
00:12:11,331 --> 00:12:14,000
involved, the parents and the teachers.
250
00:12:14,000 --> 00:12:15,001
DON AYERS, FORMER PRINCIPAL:
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00:12:15,001 --> 00:12:16,669
Probably the most significant thing that
252
00:12:16,669 --> 00:12:18,338
happened was that the teachers,
253
00:12:18,338 --> 00:12:21,207
for the first time, had some power,
254
00:12:21,207 --> 00:12:25,478
and they were able to build the curriculum to
255
00:12:25,478 --> 00:12:28,281
fit the needs of the children as they saw it.
256
00:12:28,715 --> 00:12:33,353
The state and local school board did not
257
00:12:33,353 --> 00:12:35,655
dictate the kind of curriculum that was
258
00:12:35,655 --> 00:12:37,223
used in the McCollum School.
259
00:12:37,857 --> 00:12:39,626
The parents became more
260
00:12:39,626 --> 00:12:41,294
involved in this school.
261
00:12:41,294 --> 00:12:43,763
They attended more meetings.
262
00:12:44,033 --> 00:12:47,270
Also, they had a power to pull their child out
263
00:12:47,567 --> 00:12:49,435
of that particular mini-school if they
264
00:12:49,435 --> 00:12:51,537
chose another mini-school.
265
00:12:53,506 --> 00:12:54,874
FRIEDMAN: Giving parents greater choice
266
00:12:54,874 --> 00:12:57,410
had a dramatic effect on educational quality.
267
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In terms of test scores, this school went from
268
00:13:00,546 --> 00:13:03,049
13th to 2nd place among the schools in its
269
00:13:03,049 --> 00:13:06,066
district, but the experiment is now over.
270
00:13:06,452 --> 00:13:08,354
When school resumed after the summer
271
00:13:08,354 --> 00:13:11,090
vacation, this was just another public school,
272
00:13:11,009 --> 00:13:13,086
back in the hands of the bureaucrats.
273
00:13:16,863 --> 00:13:19,365
Giving parents a choice is a good idea,
274
00:13:19,365 --> 00:13:22,101
yet it always meets with opposition from
275
00:13:22,101 --> 00:13:24,070
the educational establishment.
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00:13:27,507 --> 00:13:28,574
This is Ashford,
277
00:13:28,574 --> 00:13:30,443
a town in the south of England.
278
00:13:30,071 --> 00:13:32,140
For four years, there have been efforts here
279
00:13:32,779 --> 00:13:34,480
to introduce an experiment in
280
00:13:34,048 --> 00:13:35,850
greater parental choice.
281
00:13:36,282 --> 00:13:37,817
Parents would be given vouchers
282
00:13:37,817 --> 00:13:39,419
covering the cost of schooling.
283
00:13:39,752 --> 00:13:41,187
They could use the voucher to send their
284
00:13:41,187 --> 00:13:43,589
child to any school of their choice.
285
00:13:50,263 --> 00:13:52,298
I have long believed that children,
286
00:13:52,298 --> 00:13:54,767
teachers, all of us, would benefit
287
00:13:54,767 --> 00:13:56,402
from a voucher system.
288
00:13:58,638 --> 00:14:01,174
But the headmaster here, who happens also
289
00:14:01,174 --> 00:14:03,309
to be secretary of the local teacher's union,
290
00:14:03,309 --> 00:14:05,878
has very different views about
291
00:14:05,878 --> 00:14:07,847
introducing vouchers.
292
00:14:11,005 --> 00:14:11,973
MR. DENNIS GEE, HEADMASTER: We see this
293
00:14:12,018 --> 00:14:14,687
as a barrier between us and the parent.
294
00:14:14,687 --> 00:14:17,623
This sticky little piece of paper in their hand,
295
00:14:17,623 --> 00:14:20,640
coming in and under due writ,
296
00:14:20,793 --> 00:14:22,795
“you will do this or else.”
297
00:14:23,029 --> 00:14:25,131
We make our judgment because we believe
298
00:14:25,131 --> 00:14:28,835
it is in the best interest of every Willy
299
00:14:28,835 --> 00:14:31,070
and every little Johnny that we have got,
300
00:14:31,007 --> 00:14:33,109
and not because someone is going to say,
301
00:14:33,172 --> 00:14:35,508
“If you don't do it, we will do that.”
302
00:14:35,508 --> 00:14:38,444
It is this sort of philosophy of the
303
00:14:38,444 --> 00:14:41,581
marketplace that we object to.
304
00:14:42,515 --> 00:14:44,817
FRIEDMAN: In other words, Mr. Gee objects
305
00:14:44,817 --> 00:14:46,419
to giving the customer, in this case
306
00:14:46,419 --> 00:14:48,821
the parent, anything to say about the kind
307
00:14:48,821 --> 00:14:51,124
of schooling his child gets.
308
00:14:51,124 --> 00:14:53,526
Instead, the bureaucrats should decide.
309
00:14:55,194 --> 00:14:56,863
GEE: We are answerable to parents
310
00:14:56,863 --> 00:14:59,098
through our government bodies,
311
00:14:59,098 --> 00:15:01,185
through the inspectorate of the county
312
00:15:01,968 --> 00:15:04,370
council and through Her Majesty's
313
00:15:04,037 --> 00:15:07,374
inspectorate to the secretary of state.
314
00:15:08,341 --> 00:15:11,010
These are people, professionals, who are
315
00:15:11,001 --> 00:15:12,903
able to make professional judgments.
316
00:15:15,314 --> 00:15:16,749
FRIEDMAN: But things look very different
317
00:15:16,749 --> 00:15:18,251
from the point of view of parents.
318
00:15:18,251 --> 00:15:21,120
Jason Walton's parents had to fight the
319
00:15:21,012 --> 00:15:22,947
bureaucracy, the professionals,
320
00:15:23,055 --> 00:15:25,124
for a year before they could get him
321
00:15:25,124 --> 00:15:26,793
into the school that they thought
322
00:15:26,793 --> 00:15:28,895
was best suited to his needs.
323
00:15:29,729 --> 00:15:30,763
MAURICE WALTON, PARENT: As the present
324
00:15:30,763 --> 00:15:32,899
system stands, I think virtually parents
325
00:15:32,899 --> 00:15:35,468
have got no freedom of choice whatsoever.
326
00:15:35,468 --> 00:15:40,473
They are told what is good for them by the
327
00:15:40,473 --> 00:15:42,775
teachers, and are told that the teachers
328
00:15:42,775 --> 00:15:44,177
are doing a great job,
329
00:15:44,177 --> 00:15:47,213
and I’ve just got no say at all.
330
00:15:47,058 --> 00:15:49,394
If the voucher system were introduced,
331
00:15:49,916 --> 00:15:53,019
I think it would bring teachers and
332
00:15:53,019 --> 00:15:55,621
parents together, I think closer.
333
00:15:55,621 --> 00:15:57,708
A parent that is worried about his child
334
00:15:58,491 --> 00:16:01,194
would remove their child from the school
335
00:16:01,194 --> 00:16:02,762
that wasn't giving it good service
336
00:16:02,762 --> 00:16:04,463
and take it to one that was.
337
00:16:04,463 --> 00:16:06,199
And if a school is going to crumble
338
00:16:06,199 --> 00:16:09,802
because it's got nothing but vandalism,
339
00:16:09,802 --> 00:16:11,938
it is generally slack on discipline,
340
00:16:11,938 --> 00:16:13,940
and the children aren't learning well,
341
00:16:13,094 --> 00:16:16,263
that is a good thing from my point of view.
342
00:16:19,078 --> 00:16:20,546
FRIEDMAN: Even good schools like this
343
00:16:20,546 --> 00:16:22,381
would benefit from a voucher system,
344
00:16:22,381 --> 00:16:24,116
from having to shape up or see
345
00:16:24,116 --> 00:16:25,918
parents take children elsewhere.
346
00:16:25,918 --> 00:16:27,553
But that is not how it looks to
347
00:16:27,553 --> 00:16:29,021
the head master.
348
00:16:29,322 --> 00:16:31,424
GEE: I am not sure that parents know what
349
00:16:31,424 --> 00:16:33,759
is best educationally for their children.
350
00:16:33,759 --> 00:16:36,462
They know what is best for them to eat,
351
00:16:36,462 --> 00:16:38,831
they know the best environment they can
352
00:16:38,831 --> 00:16:42,668
provide at home, but we've been trained to
353
00:16:42,668 --> 00:16:44,755
ascertain the problems of children,
354
00:16:45,538 --> 00:16:48,107
to detect their weaknesses, and put right
355
00:16:48,107 --> 00:16:49,976
those things that need putting right,
356
00:16:49,976 --> 00:16:52,378
and we want to do this freely,
357
00:16:52,378 --> 00:16:54,280
with the cooperation of parents,
358
00:16:54,028 --> 00:16:56,125
and not under any undue strains.
359
00:16:58,551 --> 00:17:00,353
WALTON: I can understand the teacher
360
00:17:00,353 --> 00:17:01,821
saying, yes, it is a gun at my head,
361
00:17:01,821 --> 00:17:03,089
but they have got the same gun at
362
00:17:03,089 --> 00:17:04,490
the parent’s head at the moment.
363
00:17:04,857 --> 00:17:07,093
The parent goes up to the teacher and says,
364
00:17:07,093 --> 00:17:08,494
well, I am not satisfied with what you are
365
00:17:08,494 --> 00:17:10,496
doing, and the teacher can say, well,
366
00:17:10,496 --> 00:17:12,798
tough, you can't take him away,
367
00:17:12,798 --> 00:17:14,133
you can't move him,
368
00:17:14,133 --> 00:17:15,501
you can't do what you like,
369
00:17:15,501 --> 00:17:17,370
so go away and stop bothering me.
370
00:17:17,703 --> 00:17:19,272
That can be the attitude of some
371
00:17:19,272 --> 00:17:20,973
teachers today -- it often is.
372
00:17:21,507 --> 00:17:23,476
But now that the positions are being
373
00:17:23,476 --> 00:17:25,244
reversed and the roles are changed,
374
00:17:25,244 --> 00:17:27,980
I can only say tough on the teachers.
375
00:17:27,098 --> 00:17:28,967
Let them pull their socks up and give us a
376
00:17:29,849 --> 00:17:32,685
better deal and let us participate more.
377
00:17:34,186 --> 00:17:35,688
FRIEDMAN: In America there is one part
378
00:17:35,688 --> 00:17:37,523
of education where the market
379
00:17:37,523 --> 00:17:38,991
has had extensive scope.
380
00:17:38,991 --> 00:17:40,693
That is higher education.
381
00:17:40,693 --> 00:17:42,795
These students attend Dartmouth College,
382
00:17:42,795 --> 00:17:45,812
a private school founded in 1769.
383
00:17:46,465 --> 00:17:48,234
The college is supported entirely by
384
00:17:48,234 --> 00:17:51,003
private donations, income from endowment,
385
00:17:51,003 --> 00:17:52,505
and student fees.
386
00:17:52,905 --> 00:17:55,952
It has a high reputation and a fine record.
387
00:17:58,978 --> 00:18:00,579
Ninety-five percent of the students who
388
00:18:00,579 --> 00:18:03,082
enroll here complete their undergraduate
389
00:18:03,082 --> 00:18:04,584
course and get a degree.
390
00:18:07,153 --> 00:18:09,088
The students here pay high fees,
391
00:18:09,088 --> 00:18:11,290
fees which cover most of the cost of
392
00:18:11,029 --> 00:18:12,998
the schooling which they get.
393
00:18:13,259 --> 00:18:14,727
Most of them get the money from
394
00:18:14,727 --> 00:18:17,396
their parents, but some are on scholarships
395
00:18:17,396 --> 00:18:18,998
provided either by Dartmouth or
396
00:18:18,998 --> 00:18:20,399
by outside sources.
397
00:18:20,399 --> 00:18:22,466
Still others take out loans to pay the
398
00:18:23,069 --> 00:18:24,704
costs of schooling, loans which they
399
00:18:24,704 --> 00:18:26,672
will have to pay back years later.
400
00:18:26,672 --> 00:18:29,141
Still others work, either during the school
401
00:18:29,141 --> 00:18:31,210
year or during the summer, to pay the costs.
402
00:18:34,246 --> 00:18:35,448
Many students work in the
403
00:18:35,448 --> 00:18:37,049
college's own hotel.
404
00:18:37,049 --> 00:18:39,251
This girl is helping to pay her own way,
405
00:18:39,785 --> 00:18:41,554
which is pretty good evidence that she is
406
00:18:41,554 --> 00:18:43,489
serious about getting an education.
407
00:18:48,794 --> 00:18:50,463
Parents of prospective students come
408
00:18:50,463 --> 00:18:52,865
here on shopping expeditions to check out
409
00:18:52,865 --> 00:18:54,667
the product before they buy.
410
00:18:56,736 --> 00:18:59,405
What you have here is a private market
411
00:18:59,405 --> 00:19:01,907
in education, and the college is
412
00:19:01,907 --> 00:19:02,942
selling schooling.
413
00:19:02,942 --> 00:19:05,277
The students are buying schooling.
414
00:19:05,277 --> 00:19:08,581
And as in most such markets, both sides
415
00:19:08,581 --> 00:19:11,588
have a strong incentive to serve one another.
416
00:19:12,652 --> 00:19:15,821
For the college, it has a strong incentive
417
00:19:15,821 --> 00:19:17,456
to provide the kind of schooling
418
00:19:17,456 --> 00:19:19,158
that its students want.
419
00:19:19,158 --> 00:19:20,926
If it doesn't, they can simply
420
00:19:20,926 --> 00:19:23,029
pick up and go elsewhere.
421
00:19:23,029 --> 00:19:24,864
For the students,
422
00:19:24,864 --> 00:19:26,365
they want to get their money's worth.
423
00:19:26,365 --> 00:19:28,667
They are customers, and like every customer
424
00:19:28,667 --> 00:19:30,754
everywhere, they want to get full value for
425
00:19:31,537 --> 00:19:33,105
the money they are paying.
426
00:19:40,813 --> 00:19:43,582
And so much of the success here comes from
427
00:19:43,582 --> 00:19:45,684
the fact that students understand precisely
428
00:19:45,684 --> 00:19:47,620
the cost involved and they are
429
00:19:47,062 --> 00:19:48,763
determined to get their money's worth.
430
00:19:50,389 --> 00:19:51,490
REGINA BARRECA, STUDENT:
431
00:19:51,049 --> 00:19:52,484
. . . they send you sheets saying how much
432
00:19:52,925 --> 00:19:54,927
everything costs all the time, so that you
433
00:19:54,927 --> 00:19:56,062
know exactly, you can break
434
00:19:56,062 --> 00:19:57,229
it down per lecture.
435
00:19:57,229 --> 00:20:00,966
And when you see each lecture costing $35,
436
00:20:00,966 --> 00:20:02,234
and you think of the other things you could
437
00:20:02,234 --> 00:20:04,537
be doing with the $35, you're making very
438
00:20:04,537 --> 00:20:06,138
sure you're going to that lecture.
439
00:20:07,873 --> 00:20:09,075
FRIEDMAN: Many of the buildings and
440
00:20:09,075 --> 00:20:11,110
facilities at Dartmouth have been donated
441
00:20:11,011 --> 00:20:12,813
by private individuals and foundations.
442
00:20:12,912 --> 00:20:15,748
Like other private universities, Dartmouth
443
00:20:15,748 --> 00:20:18,317
has combined the selling of monuments with
444
00:20:18,317 --> 00:20:20,286
the provision of education and the one
445
00:20:20,286 --> 00:20:22,421
activity reinforces the other.
446
00:20:26,559 --> 00:20:28,427
The students, in effect, earn part of their
447
00:20:28,427 --> 00:20:30,663
keep by helping to solicit alumni for
448
00:20:30,663 --> 00:20:33,699
contributions, knowing full well that they will
449
00:20:33,699 --> 00:20:36,706
be solicited in their turn.
450
00:20:38,771 --> 00:20:41,173
It is another way in which the real value
451
00:20:41,173 --> 00:20:44,190
of education is brought home.
452
00:20:59,058 --> 00:21:01,093
This may not be the usual idea of an
453
00:21:01,093 --> 00:21:03,696
economic market, but it is nonetheless a
454
00:21:03,696 --> 00:21:06,198
marketplace where buyers can choose and
455
00:21:06,198 --> 00:21:08,200
sellers must compete for customers.
456
00:21:10,903 --> 00:21:12,771
What happens when the educational
457
00:21:12,771 --> 00:21:14,240
market is distorted?
458
00:21:14,807 --> 00:21:17,176
Look at state colleges and universities.
459
00:21:17,176 --> 00:21:20,045
Their fees are generally very low, paying for
460
00:21:20,045 --> 00:21:23,182
only a small part of the cost of schooling.
461
00:21:24,049 --> 00:21:26,152
They attract serious students,
462
00:21:26,152 --> 00:21:29,121
just as interested in their education as the
463
00:21:29,121 --> 00:21:30,789
students at Dartmouth or other private
464
00:21:30,789 --> 00:21:32,846
schools, but they also attract a great many
465
00:21:33,359 --> 00:21:37,163
others; students who come because fees are
466
00:21:37,163 --> 00:21:39,398
low, residential housing is good,
467
00:21:39,398 --> 00:21:41,700
food is good, and above all there
468
00:21:41,007 --> 00:21:43,310
are lots of their peers.
469
00:21:45,204 --> 00:21:47,473
It's a pleasant interlude for them.
470
00:21:49,275 --> 00:21:51,977
The University of California at Los Angeles.
471
00:21:54,313 --> 00:21:56,148
For those students who are here as a
472
00:21:56,148 --> 00:21:58,717
pleasant interlude, going to class is a price
473
00:21:58,717 --> 00:22:01,320
they pay to be here, not the product
474
00:22:01,032 --> 00:22:02,533
they are buying.
475
00:22:03,022 --> 00:22:03,956
DARRELL DEARMONE, LECTURER:
476
00:22:03,956 --> 00:22:07,359
We frequently wind up with people
477
00:22:07,359 --> 00:22:10,963
who cannot compete favorably with even
478
00:22:10,963 --> 00:22:13,299
the average person here.
479
00:22:17,436 --> 00:22:19,672
There is a magnet here for everything.
480
00:22:19,672 --> 00:22:21,073
We have the best weather,
481
00:22:21,073 --> 00:22:23,075
practically speaking, in the country.
482
00:22:23,075 --> 00:22:25,152
Hollywood is here, Beverly Hills is here,
483
00:22:25,845 --> 00:22:28,547
the social scene, the television industry
484
00:22:28,547 --> 00:22:30,583
in this country is centered here.
485
00:22:32,518 --> 00:22:34,353
FRIEDMAN: The justification for using tax
486
00:22:34,353 --> 00:22:36,288
money to support institutions like this is
487
00:22:36,288 --> 00:22:38,424
supposed to be so that every youngster,
488
00:22:38,424 --> 00:22:40,726
regardless of the income or wealth of his
489
00:22:40,726 --> 00:22:42,528
parents, can go to college.
490
00:22:42,528 --> 00:22:44,363
A few youngsters from poor families
491
00:22:44,363 --> 00:22:46,665
are here, but not very many.
492
00:22:53,339 --> 00:22:55,374
Most of these students are from middle and
493
00:22:55,374 --> 00:22:57,576
upper income families, yet everybody,
494
00:22:57,576 --> 00:23:00,012
whatever his income, pays taxes to
495
00:23:00,012 --> 00:23:01,847
help support these institutions.
496
00:23:06,752 --> 00:23:09,521
That is a disgraceful situation.
497
00:23:09,521 --> 00:23:11,223
It is hardly what public education
498
00:23:11,223 --> 00:23:12,591
was all about.
499
00:23:12,591 --> 00:23:14,893
These students are being subsidized by
500
00:23:14,893 --> 00:23:16,695
people who will never go to college.
501
00:23:18,013 --> 00:23:20,315
That means that on the average people who
502
00:23:20,432 --> 00:23:22,101
will end up with higher incomes are being
503
00:23:22,101 --> 00:23:24,069
subsidized by people who will
504
00:23:24,069 --> 00:23:25,938
end up with lower incomes.
505
00:23:26,372 --> 00:23:28,140
And in addition, the quality of
506
00:23:28,014 --> 00:23:29,949
undergraduate education is poor.
507
00:23:35,147 --> 00:23:37,283
Undergraduate teaching is not what
508
00:23:37,283 --> 00:23:39,251
UCLA is famous for.
509
00:23:39,251 --> 00:23:42,187
Besides from its athletic teams, UCLA's
510
00:23:42,187 --> 00:23:44,264
reputation is for graduate work and research.
511
00:23:52,631 --> 00:23:54,500
Faculty members have every incentive
512
00:23:54,005 --> 00:23:56,507
to do research, that's the way to advance
513
00:23:57,002 --> 00:23:57,836
in their profession.
514
00:23:57,836 --> 00:23:59,705
They have much less to gain
515
00:23:59,705 --> 00:24:00,472
by good teaching.
516
00:24:12,451 --> 00:24:14,486
Only about half of those who enroll in
517
00:24:14,486 --> 00:24:16,722
UCLA complete the undergraduate course.
518
00:24:17,389 --> 00:24:20,326
Compare that with the 95% at Dartmouth
519
00:24:20,326 --> 00:24:22,027
who finish the work for their degrees.
520
00:24:22,261 --> 00:24:24,296
What a waste of student time,
521
00:24:24,296 --> 00:24:26,732
and what a waste of taxpayers' money.
522
00:24:32,204 --> 00:24:33,405
What should we do about this
523
00:24:33,405 --> 00:24:35,207
disgraceful situation?
524
00:24:35,207 --> 00:24:37,843
We must not deny any young man or
525
00:24:37,843 --> 00:24:40,479
woman who desires one an education.
526
00:24:41,008 --> 00:24:44,311
Everyone who has the capacity and the
527
00:24:44,383 --> 00:24:46,118
the desire to have a higher education
528
00:24:46,118 --> 00:24:47,453
should be able to do so,
529
00:24:47,453 --> 00:24:50,689
provided they are willing to undertake the
530
00:24:50,689 --> 00:24:53,192
obligation to pay the cost of their schooling,
531
00:24:53,192 --> 00:24:56,395
either currently or in later years out of the
532
00:24:56,395 --> 00:24:58,998
higher income that their education will
533
00:24:58,998 --> 00:25:00,766
make possible.
534
00:25:01,633 --> 00:25:04,136
We now have a governmental program of
535
00:25:04,136 --> 00:25:06,905
loans, which is supposedly directed to this
536
00:25:06,905 --> 00:25:08,952
objective, but it's a loan program
537
00:25:09,375 --> 00:25:10,476
in name only.
538
00:25:10,476 --> 00:25:12,644
The interest rate charged is well below
539
00:25:12,644 --> 00:25:13,579
the market rate.
540
00:25:13,579 --> 00:25:16,482
Many of these loans are never paid back.
541
00:25:17,316 --> 00:25:20,219
We must have a system under which those
542
00:25:20,219 --> 00:25:23,122
who are not able or do not go to college
543
00:25:23,122 --> 00:25:26,525
are not forced to pay for those who do.
544
00:25:33,132 --> 00:25:34,800
As we have seen, the market works
545
00:25:34,008 --> 00:25:34,875
in education.
546
00:25:35,667 --> 00:25:37,503
When people pay for what they get,
547
00:25:37,503 --> 00:25:38,804
they value what they get.
548
00:25:39,338 --> 00:25:41,273
The market works in higher education.
549
00:25:45,577 --> 00:25:47,980
It can also work at the level of primary
550
00:25:47,098 --> 00:25:48,733
and secondary education.
551
00:25:56,188 --> 00:25:58,757
Until we change the way we run our public
552
00:25:58,757 --> 00:26:01,593
schools, far too many children will end up
553
00:26:01,593 --> 00:26:03,162
without being able to read, write,
554
00:26:03,162 --> 00:26:04,263
or do arithmetic.
555
00:26:04,263 --> 00:26:06,565
That is not what any of us wants.
556
00:26:10,068 --> 00:26:13,772
The system is not working, and it is not
557
00:26:13,772 --> 00:26:16,819
working because it lacks a vital ingredient.
558
00:26:17,242 --> 00:26:20,289
The experts mean well, but a centralized
559
00:26:20,712 --> 00:26:24,316
system cannot possibly have that degree of
560
00:26:24,316 --> 00:26:27,920
personal concern for each individual child
561
00:26:27,092 --> 00:26:30,161
that we have as parents.
562
00:26:30,989 --> 00:26:32,758
The centralization produces
563
00:26:32,758 --> 00:26:34,126
deadening uniformity.
564
00:26:34,126 --> 00:26:36,628
It destroys the experimentation
565
00:26:36,628 --> 00:26:39,131
that is a fundamental source of progress.
566
00:26:39,131 --> 00:26:42,768
What we need to do is to enable parents,
567
00:26:42,768 --> 00:26:46,171
by vouchers or other means, to have more
568
00:26:46,171 --> 00:26:48,674
say about the school which their
569
00:26:48,674 --> 00:26:51,176
child goes to; a public school or a
570
00:26:51,176 --> 00:26:53,912
private school, whichever meets the need
571
00:26:53,912 --> 00:26:55,714
of the child best.
572
00:26:56,782 --> 00:26:59,985
That will inevitably give them also more say
573
00:26:59,985 --> 00:27:01,620
about what their children are taught,
574
00:27:01,062 --> 00:27:03,197
and how they are taught.
575
00:27:04,099 --> 00:27:08,036
Market competition is the surest way to
576
00:27:08,927 --> 00:27:10,796
improve the quality and promote innovation,
577
00:27:10,796 --> 00:27:14,500
in education as in every other field.
578
00:27:38,991 --> 00:27:39,658
ROBERT MCKENZIE: The distinguished
579
00:27:39,658 --> 00:27:41,593
guests tonight are all intimately concerned
580
00:27:41,593 --> 00:27:44,129
with the world of education, so let’s find out
581
00:27:44,129 --> 00:27:46,231
how they react to Friedman's analysis.
582
00:27:46,231 --> 00:27:47,432
ALBERT SHANKER: I think it's very foolish
583
00:27:47,432 --> 00:27:48,634
to throw out something that you've got
584
00:27:48,634 --> 00:27:50,235
and that has some shortcomings,
585
00:27:50,235 --> 00:27:53,438
but is very, very good in order to try out
586
00:27:53,438 --> 00:27:55,374
someone's pet ideas
587
00:27:55,374 --> 00:27:58,076
Well, before we ask Milton to reply to that,
588
00:27:58,076 --> 00:28:00,712
let’s get other views on the same quotation,
589
00:28:00,712 --> 00:28:03,081
"Market competition is the surest way to
590
00:28:03,081 --> 00:28:05,450
improve the quality and promote innovation
591
00:28:05,045 --> 00:28:07,102
in education." John Coons.
592
00:28:08,002 --> 00:28:09,837
Well, of course, there's enormous evidence
593
00:28:09,855 --> 00:28:10,956
that that is exactly right,
594
00:28:10,956 --> 00:28:13,992
and we see it in the case in California
595
00:28:13,992 --> 00:28:15,661
that I observe every day,
596
00:28:15,661 --> 00:28:17,863
of low income children whose families
597
00:28:17,863 --> 00:28:20,198
are making great sacrifices to go to schools
598
00:28:20,198 --> 00:28:23,135
that operate at a third of the cost of public
599
00:28:23,135 --> 00:28:25,837
education and are turning out kids who are
600
00:28:25,837 --> 00:28:27,439
performing and are learning and achieving
601
00:28:27,439 --> 00:28:28,540
at very high levels.
602
00:28:28,054 --> 00:28:29,155
On the other hand, I wouldn't want to
603
00:28:29,641 --> 00:28:33,612
suggest that unlimited competition is
604
00:28:33,612 --> 00:28:34,813
the answer to every problem.
605
00:28:34,813 --> 00:28:36,214
And, indeed, the whole definition of
606
00:28:36,214 --> 00:28:37,616
competition is very ambiguous.
607
00:28:37,616 --> 00:28:40,018
It seems to me that if one is truly
608
00:28:40,018 --> 00:28:42,020
interested in liberty, which I think is the
609
00:28:42,002 --> 00:28:43,304
ultimate value that Milton Friedman
610
00:28:43,322 --> 00:28:45,390
talks about, one has to be very careful
611
00:28:45,039 --> 00:28:48,243
how he structures the kinds of subsidies that
612
00:28:48,594 --> 00:28:50,729
are proposed for education so that you do
613
00:28:50,729 --> 00:28:53,398
not wind up with the poor in one kind of
614
00:28:53,398 --> 00:28:54,866
school and the rich all in the other,
615
00:28:54,866 --> 00:28:56,953
and very little liberty for low-income people
616
00:28:57,736 --> 00:28:59,304
left over, which is what is what I think
617
00:28:59,304 --> 00:28:59,905
he has in mind.
618
00:29:00,372 --> 00:29:01,640
That is, I don't think he has
619
00:29:01,064 --> 00:29:02,399
that result in mind. He has the hope
620
00:29:02,975 --> 00:29:05,711
in mind of liberty, but that it's going to
621
00:29:05,711 --> 00:29:07,012
need a certain kind of tailoring
622
00:29:07,012 --> 00:29:08,614
before it works that way.
623
00:29:08,614 --> 00:29:09,815
SHANKER: I think your remarks about free
624
00:29:09,815 --> 00:29:12,872
competition are very unfair for a
625
00:29:13,385 --> 00:29:15,153
very simple reason. You cannot have free
626
00:29:15,153 --> 00:29:17,089
competition where one group of schools
627
00:29:17,089 --> 00:29:19,024
must accept every single student who
628
00:29:19,024 --> 00:29:21,093
comes along, no matter what his physical or
629
00:29:21,093 --> 00:29:22,861
emotional handicaps or other problems;
630
00:29:23,195 --> 00:29:24,930
whereas the very essence of a private school
631
00:29:24,093 --> 00:29:25,528
and your voucher school is that they're
632
00:29:26,365 --> 00:29:27,799
going to be able to keep out the students.
633
00:29:28,004 --> 00:29:31,091
And the finest schools that you saw in
634
00:29:32,027 --> 00:29:34,029
that film were schools that deliberately
635
00:29:34,272 --> 00:29:36,074
kept out the most difficult students.
636
00:29:36,074 --> 00:29:37,609
Of course you can have a wonderful school
637
00:29:37,609 --> 00:29:40,512
if you pick students whose parents...
638
00:29:40,512 --> 00:29:41,413
(Several talking at once)
639
00:29:41,413 --> 00:29:43,849
...no, no. Whose parents are so highly
640
00:29:43,849 --> 00:29:45,550
motivated, that they're willing to spend
641
00:29:45,055 --> 00:29:46,390
more money, and willing to go out of
642
00:29:46,885 --> 00:29:48,353
their way to do something like that?
643
00:29:48,353 --> 00:29:50,122
Now the public schools have to take the
644
00:29:50,122 --> 00:29:51,757
handicapped, must provide bilingual
645
00:29:51,757 --> 00:29:54,059
education, must engage in bussing or
646
00:29:54,059 --> 00:29:56,228
other programs in terms of integration,
647
00:29:56,228 --> 00:29:58,497
must do all of these things;
648
00:29:58,497 --> 00:30:00,098
whereas the private school can come
649
00:30:00,098 --> 00:30:02,034
along and say, "Well, if your child has
650
00:30:02,034 --> 00:30:03,435
no problems, you know what we can do?
651
00:30:03,435 --> 00:30:04,903
We can offer you a school where
652
00:30:04,903 --> 00:30:06,004
you don't have to sit next to
653
00:30:06,004 --> 00:30:07,372
a child with these other problems.
654
00:30:07,372 --> 00:30:08,240
We're gonna put you next to
655
00:30:08,024 --> 00:30:09,959
other children who are advantaged.
656
00:30:10,909 --> 00:30:12,177
SHANNON: I think in the real world
657
00:30:12,177 --> 00:30:14,413
there is no competition between
658
00:30:14,413 --> 00:30:17,182
private schools and public schools, because
659
00:30:17,182 --> 00:30:20,185
private schools, especially parochial schools,
660
00:30:20,185 --> 00:30:22,821
do not have to comply with federal and state
661
00:30:22,821 --> 00:30:25,858
mandates and constitutional limitations
662
00:30:26,191 --> 00:30:27,459
and things of that sort.
663
00:30:27,459 --> 00:30:28,360
McKENZIE: Dr. Anrig.
664
00:30:29,027 --> 00:30:29,861
GREGORY ANRIG: I think the part
665
00:30:29,861 --> 00:30:31,730
of the film that speaks to the greater
666
00:30:31,073 --> 00:30:32,341
parental involvement, I agree with
667
00:30:32,998 --> 00:30:34,966
very enthusiastically. However, I think
668
00:30:34,966 --> 00:30:36,601
the solution is the wrong solution for
669
00:30:36,601 --> 00:30:38,003
the problem that you identify.
670
00:30:38,437 --> 00:30:40,872
I think the role of public education
671
00:30:40,872 --> 00:30:43,008
in a democracy is not akin to that
672
00:30:43,008 --> 00:30:45,577
of the marketplace. The purpose for the
673
00:30:45,577 --> 00:30:47,713
common school is not the same as
674
00:30:47,713 --> 00:30:49,214
the purpose for the marketplace.
675
00:30:49,815 --> 00:30:51,416
We are trying in our public schools
676
00:30:51,416 --> 00:30:52,684
to create a democracy,
677
00:30:52,884 --> 00:30:54,853
to create an educated electorate.
678
00:30:55,287 --> 00:30:56,888
If you're going to do that, you have
679
00:30:56,888 --> 00:30:58,356
to have the common school.
680
00:30:58,824 --> 00:30:58,831
How far do you accept
681
00:30:59,524 --> 00:31:01,226
his analysis of the present
682
00:31:01,226 --> 00:31:03,662
condition of the public education system?
683
00:31:03,662 --> 00:31:04,863
A pretty drastic analysis.
684
00:31:05,097 --> 00:31:06,598
Well, I think he's established three
685
00:31:06,598 --> 00:31:07,733
straw men that I think have to
686
00:31:07,733 --> 00:31:09,000
be challenged, with all respect,
687
00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:10,769
Professor Friedman. The first is that
688
00:31:10,769 --> 00:31:12,170
there is a profession of educators
689
00:31:12,017 --> 00:31:13,285
out there which has run amuck.
690
00:31:14,072 --> 00:31:16,108
We have the most decentralized system
691
00:31:16,108 --> 00:31:18,410
in the world in the American education.
692
00:31:18,041 --> 00:31:20,810
Sixteen thousand school districts that
693
00:31:21,179 --> 00:31:22,848
are governed not by the profession,
694
00:31:22,848 --> 00:31:24,916
but by elected citizen representatives,
695
00:31:25,015 --> 00:31:25,983
most of whom are parents.
696
00:31:26,818 --> 00:31:28,687
Secondly, you long, as I would,
697
00:31:28,687 --> 00:31:30,188
for the good old days of
698
00:31:30,188 --> 00:31:31,490
the one-room school in Vermont.
699
00:31:32,019 --> 00:31:34,055
That school served a small proportion of
700
00:31:34,226 --> 00:31:35,527
the youngsters for a short period
701
00:31:35,527 --> 00:31:37,562
of time, and those days will never
702
00:31:37,562 --> 00:31:40,065
come back. Third, you use as an example
703
00:31:40,065 --> 00:31:42,200
of American education, a troubled
704
00:31:42,002 --> 00:31:43,571
high school in an urban center.
705
00:31:44,136 --> 00:31:45,504
McKENZIE: In your bailiwick.
706
00:31:45,804 --> 00:31:46,371
In my bailiwick,
707
00:31:46,371 --> 00:31:47,572
which is not typical of where
708
00:31:47,572 --> 00:31:49,207
the American student goes to school,
709
00:31:49,207 --> 00:31:51,543
first of all; and secondly is not typical of
710
00:31:51,543 --> 00:31:53,545
the City of Boston. And I do think
711
00:31:53,545 --> 00:31:54,746
it's important to point out that
712
00:31:54,746 --> 00:31:56,548
that particular school, at the time that
713
00:31:56,548 --> 00:31:57,949
you took filming there, or your
714
00:31:57,949 --> 00:31:59,551
production crew did, was in the
715
00:31:59,551 --> 00:32:01,520
middle of a desegregation process
716
00:32:01,052 --> 00:32:02,720
that was not anywhere remarked
717
00:32:03,188 --> 00:32:05,357
about in the film. So it was not a
718
00:32:05,357 --> 00:32:07,626
typical example, either of education in
719
00:32:07,626 --> 00:32:09,861
America, or of education in Boston.
720
00:32:10,495 --> 00:32:11,997
The one unsurprising thing about these
721
00:32:11,997 --> 00:32:14,966
comments is that all of the opposition
722
00:32:15,567 --> 00:32:16,768
to allowing the market to work
723
00:32:17,335 --> 00:32:18,904
comes from people who have a
724
00:32:18,904 --> 00:32:20,572
very strong vested interest in the
725
00:32:20,572 --> 00:32:22,441
present public school system.
726
00:32:22,974 --> 00:32:25,110
I am not proposing, we are not proposing
727
00:32:25,011 --> 00:32:27,146
to destroy the public school system.
728
00:32:27,512 --> 00:32:29,581
We are only asking that the public
729
00:32:29,581 --> 00:32:32,117
school system should be free to compete,
730
00:32:32,818 --> 00:32:34,152
should be open to competition.
731
00:32:34,753 --> 00:32:36,555
If it is really as good as you people
732
00:32:36,555 --> 00:32:37,322
make it out to be,
733
00:32:37,322 --> 00:32:38,690
it has nothing to worry about.
734
00:32:39,191 --> 00:32:40,992
Now, in terms of your comment,
735
00:32:41,927 --> 00:32:42,761
of course there's a great deal of
736
00:32:42,761 --> 00:32:45,297
decentralization. We showed a very good
737
00:32:45,297 --> 00:32:47,199
school in this film as well as
738
00:32:47,199 --> 00:32:48,800
a very bad school. There are many
739
00:32:48,008 --> 00:32:50,544
good schools. And the more decentralized
740
00:32:51,336 --> 00:32:53,705
the control, in my opinion, the more
741
00:32:53,705 --> 00:32:54,906
satisfactory is the schooling.
742
00:32:55,044 --> 00:32:57,613
The real problem is concentrated in
743
00:32:58,009 --> 00:33:00,011
those areas where decentralization
744
00:33:00,011 --> 00:33:01,379
is broken down, where you have
745
00:33:01,379 --> 00:33:03,715
moved to much greater centralization,
746
00:33:03,715 --> 00:33:06,251
much greater control. And the main
747
00:33:06,251 --> 00:33:07,886
trouble areas are in the large cities.
748
00:33:07,886 --> 00:33:09,788
That's why we picked that school to show.
749
00:33:10,522 --> 00:33:11,857
In response to the question of the
750
00:33:11,857 --> 00:33:13,425
excellence of the schooling that's
751
00:33:13,425 --> 00:33:16,728
coming, I think there is nobody
752
00:33:16,728 --> 00:33:18,964
who can question the declining
753
00:33:18,964 --> 00:33:20,999
SAT scores, the declining scores
754
00:33:20,999 --> 00:33:23,001
on exams, the declining performance
755
00:33:23,001 --> 00:33:25,036
in the schools, the fact that there is
756
00:33:25,036 --> 00:33:27,439
widespread dissatisfaction, that many
757
00:33:27,439 --> 00:33:29,107
schools, not all schools, some schools,
758
00:33:29,107 --> 00:33:32,644
in urban areas are more accurately
759
00:33:32,644 --> 00:33:35,680
described as centers to keep people off
760
00:33:35,068 --> 00:33:37,337
the street than as educational institutions.
761
00:33:38,483 --> 00:33:39,784
SHANKER: When you have a free market,
762
00:33:39,784 --> 00:33:42,087
there are dangers that go along
763
00:33:42,087 --> 00:33:43,989
with that market. Now, we know
764
00:33:43,989 --> 00:33:46,524
that there are people in our society
765
00:33:46,524 --> 00:33:48,561
who buy Consumer's Reports, and
766
00:33:48,894 --> 00:33:49,828
and there are people who do a
767
00:33:49,828 --> 00:33:51,329
great deal of research before they
768
00:33:51,329 --> 00:33:52,631
buy something, and there are other
769
00:33:52,631 --> 00:33:54,666
people who are taken in by the crass
770
00:33:54,666 --> 00:33:56,835
commercials and instant appeal to give
771
00:33:56,835 --> 00:33:58,503
them some sort of a gimmick
772
00:33:58,503 --> 00:34:00,005
with a thing. And I think that
773
00:34:00,005 --> 00:34:01,773
the evidence is pretty clear that
774
00:34:01,773 --> 00:34:02,974
if you take middle class and
775
00:34:02,974 --> 00:34:04,175
wealthier families, they are gonna do
776
00:34:04,175 --> 00:34:05,410
a good deal of research. They may
777
00:34:05,041 --> 00:34:06,409
very well be able to invest some
778
00:34:06,778 --> 00:34:08,079
additional money of their own
779
00:34:08,079 --> 00:34:09,581
to take some inconvenience.
780
00:34:09,915 --> 00:34:11,116
And if you have an open system of
781
00:34:11,116 --> 00:34:12,617
this sort it may very well be that
782
00:34:12,617 --> 00:34:14,252
the poorest parents are gonna have to
783
00:34:14,252 --> 00:34:16,021
take what is most convenient for
784
00:34:16,021 --> 00:34:17,222
them, what is going to fit in with
785
00:34:17,222 --> 00:34:19,057
their own work schedules, what is not
786
00:34:19,057 --> 00:34:21,593
going to require additional sums of money.
787
00:34:21,826 --> 00:34:23,695
And there is no doubt in mind that
788
00:34:23,695 --> 00:34:25,897
if you set up a system of free choice
789
00:34:25,897 --> 00:34:27,399
of this sort, you're going to with the
790
00:34:27,399 --> 00:34:29,334
poor in one set of schools of their
791
00:34:29,334 --> 00:34:31,636
own on the basis of a good deal of
792
00:34:31,636 --> 00:34:32,938
gimmicks that will be offered to them.
793
00:34:32,938 --> 00:34:34,306
COONS: They can't learn, right? They're –
794
00:34:34,306 --> 00:34:35,273
FRIEDMAN: Excuse me, Mr. Shanker.
795
00:34:35,273 --> 00:34:36,441
I want to ask you one question:
796
00:34:36,441 --> 00:34:38,376
How do you explain the fact that there is
797
00:34:38,376 --> 00:34:40,712
no area of the free market, no area of the
798
00:34:40,712 --> 00:34:43,114
private market, in which the poor people
799
00:34:43,114 --> 00:34:45,817
who live in the ghettos of our major cities
800
00:34:45,817 --> 00:34:48,753
are as disadvantaged as they are with
801
00:34:48,753 --> 00:34:50,622
respect to the kind of schooling they can get?
802
00:34:50,889 --> 00:34:53,658
I want you to name me any aspect of the
803
00:34:53,658 --> 00:34:55,760
private market- they’re not as disadvantaged
804
00:34:55,076 --> 00:34:56,845
in the kind of supermarkets they can go to.
805
00:34:57,529 --> 00:34:59,197
They're not as disadvantaged even in the
806
00:34:59,197 --> 00:35:00,632
kind of housing they can occupy,
807
00:35:00,632 --> 00:35:02,534
as they are in respect of the kind of
808
00:35:02,534 --> 00:35:04,135
schooling their children can go to.
809
00:35:04,135 --> 00:35:05,503
How does –
SHANKER: What's your evidence for that?
810
00:35:05,503 --> 00:35:06,638
I don't think you have any evidence for that.
811
00:35:06,638 --> 00:35:08,206
COONS: But, they're trying to get out.
812
00:35:08,206 --> 00:35:09,507
FRIEDMAN: They're trying desperately
813
00:35:09,507 --> 00:35:10,342
to get out.
814
00:35:10,342 --> 00:35:13,278
Families with very low incomes are
815
00:35:13,278 --> 00:35:14,779
trying to get into the parochial
816
00:35:14,779 --> 00:35:16,414
schools that you're talking about.
SHANKER: Exactly.
817
00:35:16,414 --> 00:35:18,450
And they're trying to get out of the slums,
818
00:35:18,045 --> 00:35:18,779
and they're trying to
819
00:35:19,184 --> 00:35:20,485
get into different neighborhoods –
820
00:35:20,485 --> 00:35:21,886
FRIEDMAN: They are trying to, sure.
821
00:35:21,886 --> 00:35:22,821
FRIEDMAN: They're doing better on that.
822
00:35:22,821 --> 00:35:24,356
They're doing better on that.
823
00:35:24,356 --> 00:35:27,058
And instead, in a free choice system you
824
00:35:27,058 --> 00:35:29,194
would have more heterogeneous schools in
825
00:35:29,194 --> 00:35:32,897
my opinion, far less segregation by social
826
00:35:32,897 --> 00:35:34,899
and economic class than you now have.
827
00:35:34,899 --> 00:35:35,867
Because –
828
00:35:35,867 --> 00:35:36,935
(Several talking at once.)
829
00:35:36,935 --> 00:35:37,769
McKENZIE: Dr. Anrig.
830
00:35:37,769 --> 00:35:40,071
ANRIG: It just doesn't hold up by the
831
00:35:40,071 --> 00:35:41,039
very examples he's used.
832
00:35:41,039 --> 00:35:41,473
FRIEDMAN: Excuse me.
833
00:35:41,473 --> 00:35:43,908
It so happens that right now, the parochial
834
00:35:43,908 --> 00:35:46,111
schools are the only alternative really
835
00:35:46,111 --> 00:35:48,313
available to low-income people.
836
00:35:48,313 --> 00:35:49,314
SHANKER: Do they take all the children
837
00:35:49,314 --> 00:35:50,281
who want to get in?
838
00:35:50,281 --> 00:35:51,082
FRIEDMAN: And the reason for that is
839
00:35:51,082 --> 00:35:54,319
that it's very hard to sell something
840
00:35:54,319 --> 00:35:56,621
when other people are giving it away.
841
00:35:56,621 --> 00:35:59,324
Anybody who wants to send his child to a
842
00:35:59,324 --> 00:36:02,027
non-public school has to pay twice for it,
843
00:36:02,027 --> 00:36:03,628
once in the form of taxes and
844
00:36:03,628 --> 00:36:04,896
once in the form of tuition.
845
00:36:04,896 --> 00:36:07,032
Under the kind of voucher scheme that
846
00:36:07,032 --> 00:36:08,667
Jack Coons and I would support,
847
00:36:08,667 --> 00:36:11,169
that difficulty would be eliminated.
848
00:36:11,169 --> 00:36:13,872
You would now have a situation in which the
849
00:36:13,872 --> 00:36:15,974
low-income people would have the kind of
850
00:36:15,974 --> 00:36:18,943
bargaining power, the kind of possibility of
851
00:36:18,943 --> 00:36:21,146
choice, that those of us who are in the
852
00:36:21,146 --> 00:36:23,381
upper-income groups have had all along.
853
00:36:23,381 --> 00:36:24,315
(Several talking at once.)
854
00:36:24,315 --> 00:36:25,250
McKENZIE: I want to move -- Jack Coons.
855
00:36:25,025 --> 00:36:26,660
Jack Coons, I want you to come in now.
856
00:36:26,885 --> 00:36:28,953
I know you're in principle advocating
857
00:36:28,953 --> 00:36:30,155
the voucher system.
858
00:36:30,155 --> 00:36:31,790
Could you give us the case as you see it?
859
00:36:31,079 --> 00:36:32,280
I know you've got your differences with
860
00:36:32,991 --> 00:36:34,592
Milton on it, but let's have the case.
861
00:36:34,592 --> 00:36:36,494
COONS: What we are doing in California
862
00:36:36,494 --> 00:36:39,931
is establishing a form of change,
863
00:36:39,931 --> 00:36:41,900
possible change, proposing a change,
864
00:36:41,009 --> 00:36:43,511
in which lower-income people will get
865
00:36:44,402 --> 00:36:46,489
information along with the opportunity to go
866
00:36:47,272 --> 00:36:48,473
to any school of their choice,
867
00:36:48,473 --> 00:36:49,908
and transportation to get there.
868
00:36:49,908 --> 00:36:51,109
Of course they need information.
869
00:36:51,109 --> 00:36:52,710
Anybody needs information in a market.
870
00:36:52,071 --> 00:36:54,374
And they need information from independent
871
00:36:55,013 --> 00:36:56,748
sources, not from the schools themselves.
872
00:36:56,748 --> 00:36:58,416
And that's the way the initiative is designed,
873
00:36:58,416 --> 00:37:00,118
to come from independent sources.
874
00:37:00,118 --> 00:37:02,787
Now, we believe that ordinary people can
875
00:37:02,787 --> 00:37:05,090
make the best judgments for their children
876
00:37:05,009 --> 00:37:06,510
about where they should go, if they're
877
00:37:06,591 --> 00:37:07,959
given good professional advice.
878
00:37:07,959 --> 00:37:09,894
And it also helps teachers because they can,
879
00:37:09,894 --> 00:37:11,563
for the first time, be professionals.
880
00:37:11,563 --> 00:37:14,199
They can act like real professionals,
881
00:37:14,199 --> 00:37:15,834
because they don't have a captive audience.
882
00:37:15,834 --> 00:37:17,869
They don't dominate their client, they
883
00:37:17,869 --> 00:37:19,637
respect their client, and they deal with them
884
00:37:19,637 --> 00:37:21,005
on the basis of contract.
885
00:37:21,005 --> 00:37:22,574
What could be better for teachers than,
886
00:37:22,574 --> 00:37:24,876
for the first time, to become people who are
887
00:37:24,876 --> 00:37:27,893
dealing in a democratic and respectful way
888
00:37:28,046 --> 00:37:30,448
with clientele instead of with captives?
889
00:37:30,882 --> 00:37:33,418
SHANNON: I am concerned that voucher
890
00:37:33,418 --> 00:37:37,856
systems will lead towards havens for white
891
00:37:37,856 --> 00:37:40,892
flight, will lead towards a dual school
892
00:37:40,892 --> 00:37:42,861
system, in the sense that you have one
893
00:37:42,861 --> 00:37:44,696
school system operating under one set of
894
00:37:44,696 --> 00:37:47,065
rules, the other school system, public school
895
00:37:47,065 --> 00:37:49,768
system, operating under carefully articulated
896
00:37:49,768 --> 00:37:53,104
educational policy in any given state.
897
00:37:53,104 --> 00:37:54,472
And that's why I think it's -
898
00:37:54,472 --> 00:37:55,306
COONS: Exactly, in Los Angeles County
899
00:37:55,306 --> 00:37:57,242
the movement to private schools
900
00:37:57,242 --> 00:38:00,269
last year was less, a smaller percentage,
901
00:38:00,512 --> 00:38:02,480
than in the statewide pattern.
902
00:38:02,048 --> 00:38:03,216
SHANKER: You may have five or
903
00:38:03,648 --> 00:38:04,949
ten percent of the students -
904
00:38:04,949 --> 00:38:06,618
FRIEDMAN: Right, right.
SHANKER: - you have very severe problems,
905
00:38:06,618 --> 00:38:08,853
and come from families with very severe
906
00:38:08,853 --> 00:38:11,456
problems, and those students take up
907
00:38:11,456 --> 00:38:13,725
95 percent of the time of the teachers
908
00:38:13,725 --> 00:38:15,126
and the administrators and the other
909
00:38:15,126 --> 00:38:17,095
children aren't getting an education.
910
00:38:17,095 --> 00:38:17,929
Now, you're gonna set up
911
00:38:17,929 --> 00:38:19,030
your voucher school.
912
00:38:19,003 --> 00:38:20,204
Are your voucher schools going
913
00:38:20,231 --> 00:38:21,299
to accept these tough children?
914
00:38:21,299 --> 00:38:22,167
COONS: You bet they are.
915
00:38:22,167 --> 00:38:23,168
(Several talking at once.)
916
00:38:23,168 --> 00:38:25,570
COONS: May I answer the question?
917
00:38:25,057 --> 00:38:27,826
SHANKER: If they accept those children,
918
00:38:28,339 --> 00:38:29,541
I'll tell you what's gonna happen.
919
00:38:29,541 --> 00:38:30,208
COONS: Okay, you tell me and
920
00:38:30,208 --> 00:38:31,109
then I'll tell you.
SHANKER: What's gonna happen
921
00:38:31,109 --> 00:38:33,077
is that the parents of all the other children
922
00:38:33,077 --> 00:38:34,546
are gonna move right out and go to another
923
00:38:34,546 --> 00:38:36,614
school, because ultimately you're going to
924
00:38:36,614 --> 00:38:38,671
have to deal with hardcore problems--
925
00:38:39,184 --> 00:38:39,817
McKENZIE: Okay, John Coons.
926
00:38:39,817 --> 00:38:41,052
SHANKER: -- whether it's in a private school
927
00:38:41,052 --> 00:38:42,320
or whether it's in a public school.
928
00:38:42,032 --> 00:38:42,766
COONS: In other words,
929
00:38:43,054 --> 00:38:45,390
that kid isn't tough in the school that
930
00:38:45,039 --> 00:38:46,574
he's in because he's stuck there;
931
00:38:46,925 --> 00:38:49,160
he's just a rotten, tough kid.
932
00:38:49,016 --> 00:38:49,950
SHANKER: He may be a kid with
933
00:38:50,094 --> 00:38:51,296
a lot of problems, not rotten,
934
00:38:51,296 --> 00:38:53,031
a kid with a lot of problems.
COONS: And it will never --
935
00:38:53,031 --> 00:38:54,532
you can't imagine a situation where if he
936
00:38:54,532 --> 00:38:56,401
were given choice, and allowed to go to a
937
00:38:56,401 --> 00:38:59,637
school that he liked, and to which he would
938
00:38:59,637 --> 00:39:01,706
connect emotionally, that he would no
939
00:39:01,706 --> 00:39:04,175
longer be a troublemaker, but that he would
940
00:39:04,175 --> 00:39:06,477
like to stay in a place where he has chosen
941
00:39:06,477 --> 00:39:08,564
and would, therefore, do what is necessary
942
00:39:09,347 --> 00:39:10,682
to stay there and to learn.
943
00:39:10,682 --> 00:39:11,516
SHANKER: You know, I don't think
944
00:39:11,516 --> 00:39:12,984
you've been near schools or classrooms
945
00:39:12,984 --> 00:39:14,185
for a heck of a long time.
COONS: Thanks a lot.
946
00:39:14,185 --> 00:39:16,120
(Laughter and applause.)
947
00:39:16,012 --> 00:39:17,781
COONS: I happen to have five kids
948
00:39:17,889 --> 00:39:19,791
who've done a lot of time in public
949
00:39:19,791 --> 00:39:21,125
and private schools both.
950
00:39:21,125 --> 00:39:23,228
SHANKER: We're not talking about the
951
00:39:23,228 --> 00:39:24,896
problems of your children, though.
952
00:39:24,896 --> 00:39:26,097
McKENZIE: Let's get around the table,
953
00:39:26,097 --> 00:39:26,865
I want to -
954
00:39:26,865 --> 00:39:27,932
FRIEDMAN: No, no. I have to get to this
955
00:39:27,932 --> 00:39:29,534
point, because I think it's a very crucial one.
956
00:39:29,534 --> 00:39:31,669
I don't think Mr. Shanker is saying that you
957
00:39:31,669 --> 00:39:35,006
should never use a doctor, if you have
958
00:39:35,006 --> 00:39:36,941
cancer, who hasn't himself had cancer.
959
00:39:36,941 --> 00:39:38,309
SHANKER Oh, I didn't say that.
960
00:39:38,309 --> 00:39:39,510
FRIEDMAN: Let's get rid of the idea that the
961
00:39:39,051 --> 00:39:40,553
only people who are competent to judge
962
00:39:41,012 --> 00:39:42,780
about whether a school is good or bad is a
963
00:39:42,078 --> 00:39:43,346
parent who at the moment has
964
00:39:44,048 --> 00:39:45,250
children in that school.
965
00:39:45,025 --> 00:39:47,494
The plain fact is that children
966
00:39:47,719 --> 00:39:49,387
are not born troublemakers.
967
00:39:49,387 --> 00:39:51,623
They do not emerge from the womb -some of
968
00:39:51,623 --> 00:39:53,691
them do, of course, but most of them do not.
969
00:39:53,691 --> 00:39:55,727
Most of the cases of the tough kids in the
970
00:39:55,727 --> 00:39:58,229
schools you're talking about are tough kids
971
00:39:58,229 --> 00:39:59,664
because they're lousy schools.
972
00:39:59,664 --> 00:40:00,698
Because the schools do not
973
00:40:00,698 --> 00:40:01,599
evoke their interest.
974
00:40:01,599 --> 00:40:02,734
Because the school does not -
975
00:40:02,734 --> 00:40:04,702
SHANKER: You're dead wrong. You're dead -
976
00:40:04,702 --> 00:40:05,536
(Several talking at once.)
977
00:40:05,536 --> 00:40:06,337
McKENZIE: Now wait a minute now,
978
00:40:06,337 --> 00:40:08,306
Greg Anrig on this one. Milton, let -
979
00:40:08,306 --> 00:40:10,208
ANRIG: It's not often I have a chance to
980
00:40:10,208 --> 00:40:11,409
tell a professor he's wrong.
981
00:40:11,409 --> 00:40:15,113
With all respect, Professor, the problems that
982
00:40:15,113 --> 00:40:17,649
you see in the urban schools of this country
983
00:40:17,649 --> 00:40:19,584
are not problems of the schools,
984
00:40:19,584 --> 00:40:21,119
they are problems of poverty.
985
00:40:21,119 --> 00:40:22,987
And they are problems of what do you do
986
00:40:22,987 --> 00:40:25,490
when, for demographic and sociological and
987
00:40:25,049 --> 00:40:26,884
economic reasons, in a country like ours,
988
00:40:27,325 --> 00:40:29,422
you begin to concentrate those people
989
00:40:30,295 --> 00:40:33,097
who are poor in the inner and older
990
00:40:33,097 --> 00:40:35,199
parts of the cities of our country.
991
00:40:35,199 --> 00:40:36,601
That's when the problem comes,
992
00:40:36,601 --> 00:40:38,169
and it's not just a problem with schools.
993
00:40:38,169 --> 00:40:40,271
It's a problem of housing, of jobs,
994
00:40:40,271 --> 00:40:42,073
of medical care, of social services,
995
00:40:42,073 --> 00:40:44,942
and the same problems crop up, and to say
996
00:40:44,942 --> 00:40:46,844
that the answer to that is take one part
997
00:40:46,844 --> 00:40:48,246
of that element and say,
998
00:40:48,246 --> 00:40:50,081
“Just set up a competitive marketplace,”
999
00:40:50,081 --> 00:40:51,482
is not dealing with the problem.
1000
00:40:51,482 --> 00:40:53,151
The problem is the problem of poverty.
1001
00:40:53,151 --> 00:40:54,719
FRIEDMAN: We've dealt with the problem –
1002
00:40:54,719 --> 00:40:57,121
THOMAS SHANNON: I am struck with the
1003
00:40:57,121 --> 00:41:00,692
anomaly, the anomaly that rises out of this
1004
00:41:00,692 --> 00:41:02,727
discussion of the voucher system.
1005
00:41:02,727 --> 00:41:04,562
The facts are that government support
1006
00:41:04,562 --> 00:41:07,398
call it subventions, call it direct aid,
1007
00:41:07,398 --> 00:41:09,367
call it grants in aid, call it vouchers,
1008
00:41:09,367 --> 00:41:12,036
call it anything, will lead ultimately to
1009
00:41:12,036 --> 00:41:14,372
government control of the private schools,
1010
00:41:14,372 --> 00:41:17,408
thus undercutting the alternative nature
1011
00:41:17,408 --> 00:41:19,877
of private schooling, and hurting it
1012
00:41:19,877 --> 00:41:21,212
at its very source.
1013
00:41:21,212 --> 00:41:22,013
COONS: Well, then you ought
1014
00:41:22,013 --> 00:41:23,114
to look at our initiative.
1015
00:41:23,114 --> 00:41:24,082
FRIEDMAN: We've had long experience with
1016
00:41:24,082 --> 00:41:25,483
that on the higher education level.
1017
00:41:25,483 --> 00:41:26,584
You have the whole GI Bill.
1018
00:41:26,584 --> 00:41:29,153
Did the GI Bill really lead, fundamentally,
1019
00:41:29,153 --> 00:41:31,255
to control of all the schools?
1020
00:41:31,255 --> 00:41:33,124
There's a fundamental difference between
1021
00:41:33,124 --> 00:41:34,826
government giving money to an institution,
1022
00:41:34,826 --> 00:41:38,663
to a school, that does lead to control directly,
1023
00:41:38,663 --> 00:41:42,867
and government giving money to people to
1024
00:41:42,867 --> 00:41:45,236
use, the food stamps don't determine what
1025
00:41:45,236 --> 00:41:46,571
people buy with their food stamps.
1026
00:41:46,571 --> 00:41:48,139
They may be a good or a bad program,
1027
00:41:48,139 --> 00:41:49,140
that's not my point.
1028
00:41:49,014 --> 00:41:51,350
My point is that don't underestimate the
1029
00:41:51,476 --> 00:41:54,212
crucial difference between making money
1030
00:41:54,212 --> 00:41:56,748
available to parents to spend as they choose
1031
00:41:56,748 --> 00:41:59,150
to exercise their judgment, and making
1032
00:41:59,015 --> 00:42:02,051
money available to institutions like schools,
1033
00:42:02,186 --> 00:42:05,213
which they spend, subject to all the
1034
00:42:05,456 --> 00:42:06,724
conflicts which they have with
1035
00:42:06,724 --> 00:42:07,959
schoolteachers and others.
1036
00:42:08,192 --> 00:42:09,527
ANRIG: You use Dartmouth as an example,
1037
00:42:09,527 --> 00:42:11,662
and I think the concerns that I have about
1038
00:42:11,662 --> 00:42:15,333
the voucher systems, the various ones
1039
00:42:15,333 --> 00:42:17,368
proposed, is not with the one applicant that
1040
00:42:17,368 --> 00:42:19,504
can get accepted to Dartmouth, but with the
1041
00:42:19,504 --> 00:42:20,605
eight applicants that don't
1042
00:42:20,605 --> 00:42:22,206
get accepted to Dartmouth.
1043
00:42:22,206 --> 00:42:23,941
What's going to happen to those
1044
00:42:23,941 --> 00:42:25,309
or that group of youngsters?
1045
00:42:25,309 --> 00:42:26,878
You can have a situation in the free
1046
00:42:26,878 --> 00:42:28,312
marketplace where everybody takes the
1047
00:42:28,312 --> 00:42:30,348
cream, but what about the youngster
1048
00:42:30,348 --> 00:42:31,816
that doesn't measure up?
1049
00:42:31,816 --> 00:42:33,451
What about the youngster that's a risk?
1050
00:42:33,451 --> 00:42:34,886
It seems to me that some of the greatest
1051
00:42:34,886 --> 00:42:37,655
leaders of this country were people that
1052
00:42:37,655 --> 00:42:39,190
would have been rejected by Dartmouth,
1053
00:42:39,019 --> 00:42:40,954
and most of the Ivy League schools.
1054
00:42:41,125 --> 00:42:42,693
McKENZIE: Let's get other views on this,
1055
00:42:42,693 --> 00:42:43,528
then we'll come back to you, Milton.
FRIEDMAN: No, no.
1056
00:42:43,528 --> 00:42:44,295
I just want to comment,
1057
00:42:44,295 --> 00:42:46,497
because I have to comment on two points,
1058
00:42:46,497 --> 00:42:47,532
the one he made earlier about
1059
00:42:47,532 --> 00:42:48,666
poverty and this one.
1060
00:42:48,666 --> 00:42:49,567
But on this one.
1061
00:42:49,567 --> 00:42:51,669
Dartmouth is one of the best examples
1062
00:42:51,669 --> 00:42:52,737
of the private schools.
1063
00:42:52,737 --> 00:42:54,772
UCLA is one of the best examples
1064
00:42:54,772 --> 00:42:56,307
of the state schools.
1065
00:42:56,307 --> 00:42:57,408
That's why we chose it.
1066
00:42:57,408 --> 00:42:59,977
There are many other private schools which
1067
00:42:59,977 --> 00:43:01,412
are not as selective and do not
1068
00:43:01,412 --> 00:43:03,815
-are available to people who
1069
00:43:03,815 --> 00:43:05,850
can't make the Dartmouth cut.
1070
00:43:05,085 --> 00:43:07,587
There are many other public schools,
1071
00:43:08,352 --> 00:43:11,389
state schools, that are less advanced than
1072
00:43:11,722 --> 00:43:13,825
UCLA and the California system.
1073
00:43:13,825 --> 00:43:15,793
There are all sorts of grades of schools.
1074
00:43:15,793 --> 00:43:17,695
But the difference between the
1075
00:43:17,695 --> 00:43:19,397
two is the same at lower levels.
1076
00:43:19,397 --> 00:43:21,232
Now I do want to make one comment going
1077
00:43:21,232 --> 00:43:23,935
back to your poverty thing; and that is that,
1078
00:43:23,935 --> 00:43:25,870
first of all, other programs in this series deal
1079
00:43:25,087 --> 00:43:26,822
with the issues you've raised.
1080
00:43:27,605 --> 00:43:31,576
But, second, do not underestimate the role
1081
00:43:31,576 --> 00:43:33,811
which bad schooling, provided by our
1082
00:43:33,811 --> 00:43:35,279
present governmental mechanism,
1083
00:43:35,279 --> 00:43:36,981
has played in creating poverty.
1084
00:43:36,981 --> 00:43:40,218
It's been a major source, particularly among
1085
00:43:40,218 --> 00:43:42,520
black and white teenagers coming up in the
1086
00:43:42,052 --> 00:43:44,087
slums, it's been a major source of their
1087
00:43:44,555 --> 00:43:46,657
difficulties of getting out of
1088
00:43:46,657 --> 00:43:47,959
the trap of poverty.
1089
00:43:47,959 --> 00:43:50,194
So it's not a one-way relation between
1090
00:43:50,194 --> 00:43:51,028
poverty and the schools,
1091
00:43:51,028 --> 00:43:53,231
the schools themselves bear a
1092
00:43:53,231 --> 00:43:54,899
great deal of responsibility.
1093
00:43:54,899 --> 00:43:55,833
SHANKER: Well, the reason the schools bear
1094
00:43:55,833 --> 00:43:57,702
it, and it isn't the schools directly, it's that
1095
00:43:57,702 --> 00:44:00,538
we don't put enough resources in for children
1096
00:44:00,538 --> 00:44:02,707
who need special and additional help
1097
00:44:02,707 --> 00:44:04,108
because they are not getting it in their
1098
00:44:04,108 --> 00:44:06,110
homes, or they're not getting the same sort
1099
00:44:06,011 --> 00:44:08,080
of support in home and community as middle
1100
00:44:08,179 --> 00:44:10,548
class kids do, and then we wait until the
1101
00:44:10,548 --> 00:44:12,483
child is 16 or 17 and drops out,
1102
00:44:12,483 --> 00:44:14,352
and then we provide a youth employment
1103
00:44:14,352 --> 00:44:16,120
program for them where we spend between
1104
00:44:16,012 --> 00:44:19,048
five and ten thousand dollars to try to undo
1105
00:44:19,156 --> 00:44:21,759
what could have been undone in the first,
1106
00:44:21,759 --> 00:44:23,427
second and third grade if we had a decent
1107
00:44:23,427 --> 00:44:24,996
investment in the public schools.
1108
00:44:24,996 --> 00:44:26,030
FRIEDMAN: I have never yet known anybody
1109
00:44:26,003 --> 00:44:27,705
who was trying to defend a government
1110
00:44:27,732 --> 00:44:29,867
program who didn't say all its evils came
1111
00:44:29,867 --> 00:44:31,202
from the fact that it wasn't big enough.
1112
00:44:31,202 --> 00:44:32,570
Now the facts are -
1113
00:44:32,057 --> 00:44:32,724
SHANKER: Would you think the children
1114
00:44:33,237 --> 00:44:34,605
with problems need the same
1115
00:44:34,605 --> 00:44:35,640
amount of education -
1116
00:44:35,064 --> 00:44:36,231
FRIEDMAN: No, no.
1117
00:44:36,807 --> 00:44:37,642
SHANKER: -- the same amount as children
1118
00:44:37,642 --> 00:44:38,509
who don't have special problems?
FRIEDMAN: No, but I just want to
1119
00:44:38,509 --> 00:44:39,710
tell you some facts.
1120
00:44:39,071 --> 00:44:40,806
The number of students in schools
1121
00:44:41,445 --> 00:44:42,380
has been going down.
1122
00:44:42,038 --> 00:44:46,642
The total expenditures on schools, allowance
1123
00:44:46,984 --> 00:44:49,787
being made for inflation, after allowing
1124
00:44:49,787 --> 00:44:51,255
for inflation, has been going up.
1125
00:44:51,255 --> 00:44:53,291
The number of pupils has been going down,
1126
00:44:53,291 --> 00:44:55,526
the number of teachers has been going up,
1127
00:44:55,526 --> 00:44:57,261
and by all accounts the quality
1128
00:44:57,261 --> 00:44:58,563
has been going down.
1129
00:44:58,563 --> 00:44:59,597
SHANKER: But I have to explain -
1130
00:44:59,597 --> 00:45:00,231
(Several talking at once)
1131
00:45:00,231 --> 00:45:02,733
McKENZIE: Milton, just a minute.
1132
00:45:02,733 --> 00:45:03,935
I want to hold you Mr. Shanker, Mr. Shanker.
1133
00:45:03,935 --> 00:45:05,803
We got onto higher education and I don't
1134
00:45:05,803 --> 00:45:07,104
want to leave it without getting the
1135
00:45:07,104 --> 00:45:08,439
rest of Milton's thoughts on it.
1136
00:45:08,439 --> 00:45:10,541
In particular, you seem to be coming to say
1137
00:45:10,541 --> 00:45:12,743
at the end of the film that the right answer
1138
00:45:12,743 --> 00:45:16,280
is a system of realistic loans where people,
1139
00:45:16,028 --> 00:45:18,264
therefore, know what it's costing, rather
1140
00:45:18,516 --> 00:45:21,185
than trying to hold down college fees
1141
00:45:21,185 --> 00:45:22,119
and that kind of thing.
1142
00:45:22,119 --> 00:45:22,887
FRIEDMAN: Absolutely.
1143
00:45:22,887 --> 00:45:23,254
McKENZIE: Yeah. And-
1144
00:45:23,254 --> 00:45:25,022
FRIEDMAN: I think that the higher education
1145
00:45:25,022 --> 00:45:26,857
is the most disgraceful example
1146
00:45:26,857 --> 00:45:27,692
on the record.
1147
00:45:27,692 --> 00:45:30,127
I know of no governmental program that
1148
00:45:30,127 --> 00:45:33,764
seem to me is so unfair and disgraceful in
1149
00:45:33,764 --> 00:45:36,400
imposing costs on low income people to
1150
00:45:36,004 --> 00:45:37,673
benefit high income people.
1151
00:45:38,069 --> 00:45:39,904
We in the upper and middle income classes
1152
00:45:39,904 --> 00:45:42,373
have conned the poor in this country to
1153
00:45:42,373 --> 00:45:44,008
supporting our children in going through
1154
00:45:44,008 --> 00:45:49,046
college and university and we don't -- and
1155
00:45:49,046 --> 00:45:50,848
we scream to the treetops about how
1156
00:45:50,848 --> 00:45:52,984
disinterested and how public-spirited we are.
1157
00:45:52,984 --> 00:45:54,385
We ought to have a system under
1158
00:45:54,385 --> 00:45:55,419
which everybody who wants to go
1159
00:45:55,419 --> 00:45:56,687
to college can go there.
1160
00:45:56,687 --> 00:45:58,956
He has to pay his own way, either now or
1161
00:45:58,956 --> 00:46:01,492
later on, and the schemes I have in mind, if
1162
00:46:01,492 --> 00:46:03,361
we developed them more fully,
1163
00:46:03,361 --> 00:46:05,396
and as I have in other contexts,
1164
00:46:05,396 --> 00:46:07,732
in other areas, are along the line of the
1165
00:46:07,732 --> 00:46:10,534
educational opportunity bank, that Professor
1166
00:46:10,534 --> 00:46:12,837
Zacharias of MIT and a commission
1167
00:46:12,837 --> 00:46:14,705
appointed by President Johnson came up
1168
00:46:14,705 --> 00:46:18,142
with as a way of enabling students to finance
1169
00:46:18,142 --> 00:46:21,045
their own higher education without facing
1170
00:46:21,045 --> 00:46:22,380
the problem you raised of ending
1171
00:46:22,038 --> 00:46:23,673
up with a large dollar debt.
ANRIG: I do think --
1172
00:46:24,015 --> 00:46:24,782
McKENZIE: Dr. Anrig.
1173
00:46:24,782 --> 00:46:27,018
ANRIG: With some trepidation, Professor,
1174
00:46:27,018 --> 00:46:28,152
I raise a question of taxation.
1175
00:46:28,152 --> 00:46:30,955
That is that I agree that we need better loan
1176
00:46:30,955 --> 00:46:33,824
systems than we have, but as I understand
1177
00:46:33,824 --> 00:46:35,693
the American tax system in general,
1178
00:46:35,693 --> 00:46:38,462
as a generality, it is a graduated system.
FRIEDMAN: Absolutely.
1179
00:46:38,462 --> 00:46:40,164
ANRIG: It is an equalizing system.
FRIEDMAN: Absolutely.
1180
00:46:40,164 --> 00:46:41,999
ANRIG: And to reach the conclusion that the
1181
00:46:41,999 --> 00:46:43,501
FRIEDMAN: No, no, it is not. It's on paper,
1182
00:46:43,501 --> 00:46:44,935
but you've got to look at the facts.
1183
00:46:44,935 --> 00:46:45,836
McKENZIE: Let him make his point, yes.
1184
00:46:45,836 --> 00:46:47,338
ANRIG: Well, I'm trying to -- it is a system
1185
00:46:47,338 --> 00:46:50,675
which the wealthier get -- or the middle
1186
00:46:50,675 --> 00:46:52,476
class get taxed more than somebody who's
1187
00:46:52,476 --> 00:46:53,744
making a lesser salary.
1188
00:46:53,744 --> 00:46:56,480
To say then that the poor are funding -
1189
00:46:56,048 --> 00:46:56,849
FRIEDMAN: That's true.
1190
00:46:57,281 --> 00:46:59,050
ANRIG: -- public higher educations, where
1191
00:46:59,005 --> 00:47:00,373
middle class youngsters, and by the way a
1192
00:47:00,418 --> 00:47:02,920
lot of poor youngsters go as well, it doesn't
1193
00:47:02,092 --> 00:47:03,560
fit with my understanding at least
1194
00:47:04,388 --> 00:47:05,256
of the tax system.
1195
00:47:05,256 --> 00:47:06,857
Now I'm not an economist, I admit it.
1196
00:47:06,857 --> 00:47:08,159
FRIEDMAN: Well, it turns out that there have
1197
00:47:08,159 --> 00:47:10,094
been some very careful studies made of
1198
00:47:10,094 --> 00:47:11,329
exactly what you're describing.
1199
00:47:11,329 --> 00:47:12,530
There's one particularly careful
1200
00:47:12,053 --> 00:47:13,054
one for California.
1201
00:47:13,531 --> 00:47:15,332
There's one for Florida.
1202
00:47:15,332 --> 00:47:19,970
These show -- it's not a minor item,
1203
00:47:19,097 --> 00:47:22,000
that if you take the total receipts from
1204
00:47:22,873 --> 00:47:24,709
expenditures on higher education going to
1205
00:47:24,709 --> 00:47:26,777
the lower classes, and the total taxes they
1206
00:47:26,777 --> 00:47:29,046
pay that are used for higher education, the
1207
00:47:29,046 --> 00:47:31,133
lower classes are paying more than they're
1208
00:47:31,916 --> 00:47:34,151
getting, and the higher classes are getting
1209
00:47:34,151 --> 00:47:36,353
more than they are paying for.
1210
00:47:36,353 --> 00:47:36,854
(Several talking at once.)
1211
00:47:36,854 --> 00:47:37,955
FRIEDMAN: Now I myself am a
1212
00:47:37,955 --> 00:47:39,190
beneficiary of this subsidy.
1213
00:47:39,019 --> 00:47:41,922
I'm one of the worst cases on record.
1214
00:47:42,093 --> 00:47:44,495
I went to a state school, Rutgers University.
1215
00:47:44,495 --> 00:47:46,363
I went on a state scholarship.
1216
00:47:46,363 --> 00:47:48,866
The poor suckers in the State of New Jersey
1217
00:47:48,866 --> 00:47:50,568
paid for my going to college.
1218
00:47:50,568 --> 00:47:53,170
I personally think that was a good thing,
1219
00:47:53,017 --> 00:47:53,851
there are many people who have
1220
00:47:54,004 --> 00:47:55,306
different opinions about that.
1221
00:47:55,306 --> 00:47:56,340
(Laughing)
1222
00:47:56,034 --> 00:47:57,869
FRIEDMAN: But I personally think
1223
00:47:58,175 --> 00:47:59,110
it's a good thing.
1224
00:47:59,011 --> 00:48:00,545
But I don't see that any reason whatsoever
1225
00:48:00,644 --> 00:48:02,847
why I shouldn't have been required to pay
1226
00:48:02,847 --> 00:48:03,981
back that money.
1227
00:48:03,981 --> 00:48:06,250
Individuals pursuing their separate individual
1228
00:48:06,025 --> 00:48:08,594
interests also provide public benefits.
1229
00:48:08,819 --> 00:48:11,822
Of course I think that the public benefited
1230
00:48:11,822 --> 00:48:13,157
from my getting an education, but the
1231
00:48:13,157 --> 00:48:14,925
primary beneficiary was me.
1232
00:48:14,925 --> 00:48:17,161
I was the one who got the benefit from it.
1233
00:48:17,161 --> 00:48:18,629
I was the one who had the higher income.
1234
00:48:18,629 --> 00:48:19,997
COONS: We know you benefited from it.
1235
00:48:19,997 --> 00:48:20,765
FRIEDMAN: I know I benefited,
1236
00:48:20,765 --> 00:48:22,099
I don't know about the public.
1237
00:48:22,099 --> 00:48:23,634
McKENZIE: I'd like others of you to react to
1238
00:48:23,634 --> 00:48:26,203
the idea of moving from state education at
1239
00:48:26,203 --> 00:48:28,305
the higher level, which is based upon low
1240
00:48:28,305 --> 00:48:29,740
fees in state universities,
1241
00:48:29,074 --> 00:48:31,410
in favor of a loan system.
1242
00:48:32,076 --> 00:48:33,544
This has been hotly debated in many
1243
00:48:33,544 --> 00:48:34,779
other countries, too.
1244
00:48:34,779 --> 00:48:35,846
What's your own feeling about that?
1245
00:48:35,846 --> 00:48:38,482
COONS: Being a tenured professor at a state
1246
00:48:38,482 --> 00:48:40,684
university I suppose you've really put
1247
00:48:40,684 --> 00:48:41,485
me on the spot.
1248
00:48:41,485 --> 00:48:42,853
I hope none of my friends are listening.
1249
00:48:42,853 --> 00:48:45,189
But I tend to agree in general with Milton
1250
00:48:45,189 --> 00:48:48,192
Friedman that we ought to find a way to
1251
00:48:48,192 --> 00:48:50,761
open up to all classes, all income classes,
1252
00:48:50,761 --> 00:48:52,563
the kinds of opportunities that the middle
1253
00:48:52,563 --> 00:48:54,598
class have at my university.
1254
00:48:54,799 --> 00:48:57,134
And I cannot give you -- we don't have time
1255
00:48:57,134 --> 00:48:58,903
to go through all of the kinds of ways
1256
00:48:58,903 --> 00:49:00,604
which we would do it, but I would
1257
00:49:00,604 --> 00:49:02,373
just personally, it seems to me, we ought to
1258
00:49:02,373 --> 00:49:04,542
let people come free at the beginning
1259
00:49:04,542 --> 00:49:06,410
and pay it back out of their income over their
1260
00:49:06,041 --> 00:49:06,775
their life span.
1261
00:49:07,144 --> 00:49:08,913
So if they make a lot of money, they pay
1262
00:49:08,913 --> 00:49:09,914
back a lot of money.
1263
00:49:09,914 --> 00:49:11,782
Perhaps we can run the whole university
1264
00:49:11,782 --> 00:49:14,351
in the future on their success, to which we
1265
00:49:14,351 --> 00:49:15,753
contributed with our teaching.
1266
00:49:15,753 --> 00:49:17,321
And if they don't make any money,
1267
00:49:17,321 --> 00:49:18,422
they don't pay anything back,
1268
00:49:18,422 --> 00:49:19,990
and that's okay too.
1269
00:49:19,099 --> 00:49:20,801
FRIEDMAN: And you ought to share in the
1270
00:49:21,692 --> 00:49:22,693
losses if they don't.
1271
00:49:22,693 --> 00:49:23,961
COONS: Exactly.
1272
00:49:23,961 --> 00:49:25,496
I can't think of anything that would frighten
1273
00:49:25,496 --> 00:49:27,798
poor people more than the thought
1274
00:49:27,798 --> 00:49:30,734
at the end of the four years or six or seven
1275
00:49:30,734 --> 00:49:33,170
or eight years of higher education,
1276
00:49:33,017 --> 00:49:35,453
they have this albatross around their neck -
1277
00:49:35,606 --> 00:49:36,640
COONS: Only if they're rich.
1278
00:49:36,064 --> 00:49:37,766
Only if they become rich.
1279
00:49:38,342 --> 00:49:39,844
FRIEDMAN: There's no albatross --
1280
00:49:39,844 --> 00:49:41,645
would you say the same thing about people
1281
00:49:41,645 --> 00:49:42,746
who start businesses?
1282
00:49:42,746 --> 00:49:45,049
We’ve got millions of people who start
1283
00:49:45,049 --> 00:49:46,650
private businesses every year.
1284
00:49:46,065 --> 00:49:47,934
Many of them lose money.
1285
00:49:49,119 --> 00:49:50,387
Many of them make money.
1286
00:49:50,387 --> 00:49:52,434
Would you say that nobody is gonna start a
1287
00:49:52,857 --> 00:49:54,225
business because he might end up
1288
00:49:54,225 --> 00:49:55,593
with an albatross?
1289
00:49:55,593 --> 00:49:56,660
You ought to let people
1290
00:49:56,066 --> 00:49:57,434
decide that for themselves.
1291
00:49:58,028 --> 00:49:59,063
What I really want to know is a very
1292
00:49:59,063 --> 00:50:02,099
different thing. How do you justify taxing the
1293
00:50:02,099 --> 00:50:04,401
people in Watts to send the children from
1294
00:50:04,401 --> 00:50:05,603
Beverly Hills to college?
1295
00:50:05,603 --> 00:50:07,438
That's a demagogic statement, but it
1296
00:50:07,438 --> 00:50:09,940
happens to be empirically a correct
1297
00:50:09,094 --> 00:50:10,396
statement. How do you justify it?
1298
00:50:11,242 --> 00:50:12,810
SHANKER: Well I don't know how we justify
1299
00:50:12,081 --> 00:50:13,682
taxing all the people of this country
1300
00:50:14,411 --> 00:50:16,280
to send the GIs under the GI bill
1301
00:50:16,028 --> 00:50:17,563
but I'm very grateful that we did it.
1302
00:50:17,815 --> 00:50:19,216
I don't know what this country would have
1303
00:50:19,216 --> 00:50:22,052
done in a postwar period without a huge
1304
00:50:22,052 --> 00:50:24,388
number of educated people in a whole
1305
00:50:24,388 --> 00:50:26,156
bunch of fields that opened up after that.
1306
00:50:26,156 --> 00:50:27,925
I doubt very much that the GIs would have
1307
00:50:27,925 --> 00:50:29,460
come back at the age that they were
1308
00:50:29,046 --> 00:50:30,848
and everything else, and would have decided
1309
00:50:31,262 --> 00:50:32,930
that now they're gonna take out loans
1310
00:50:32,093 --> 00:50:32,794
SHANNON: And a lot of
1311
00:50:33,631 --> 00:50:34,164
them were poor.
1312
00:50:34,164 --> 00:50:34,832
in order to go to college.
1313
00:50:34,832 --> 00:50:36,033
SHANKER: Yes, they were poor, and they
1314
00:50:36,033 --> 00:50:37,902
went because they had government support
1315
00:50:37,902 --> 00:50:39,770
to go, and because basically there were
1316
00:50:39,077 --> 00:50:40,946
were a lot of state-supported low-tuition
1317
00:50:41,639 --> 00:50:43,507
schools, and if you didn't have the state
1318
00:50:43,507 --> 00:50:45,009
schools, and if you didn't have the
1319
00:50:45,009 --> 00:50:46,510
government support we wouldn't --
1320
00:50:46,051 --> 00:50:48,554
we would have been without those people,
1321
00:50:49,013 --> 00:50:50,180
and I don't know what would have happened
1322
00:50:50,018 --> 00:50:51,520
either to our strength or to our
1323
00:50:51,682 --> 00:50:52,816
economy without that.
1324
00:50:52,816 --> 00:50:54,285
FRIEDMAN: The history of this country goes
1325
00:50:54,285 --> 00:50:56,587
back a little bit before 1945.
1326
00:50:56,587 --> 00:50:58,589
It goes back 200 years.
1327
00:50:58,589 --> 00:51:02,893
The state schools, universities, were a minor
1328
00:51:02,893 --> 00:51:04,962
part of the total higher educational system
1329
00:51:04,962 --> 00:51:06,130
for a long time.
1330
00:51:06,013 --> 00:51:08,682
That educational system did generate a great
1331
00:51:08,799 --> 00:51:10,467
many educated and schooled people,
1332
00:51:10,467 --> 00:51:11,502
a great many people who made
1333
00:51:11,502 --> 00:51:13,270
great contributions to this country.
1334
00:51:13,027 --> 00:51:14,796
SHANKER: What percentage of people went
1335
00:51:15,039 --> 00:51:16,206
to college before World War II
1336
00:51:16,206 --> 00:51:17,374
in this country?
1337
00:51:17,374 --> 00:51:18,275
FRIEDMAN: The percentage that was going
1338
00:51:18,275 --> 00:51:19,843
to college was going up and rising.
1339
00:51:19,843 --> 00:51:22,680
You know -- let me tell you one -- another
1340
00:51:22,068 --> 00:51:23,736
statistic -- I hate to introduce statistics.
1341
00:51:24,348 --> 00:51:25,182
But let me tell you one more.
1342
00:51:25,182 --> 00:51:28,209
Do you know that the percentage of the
1343
00:51:28,452 --> 00:51:30,554
students at private universities who
1344
00:51:30,554 --> 00:51:33,357
come from low-income classes is higher than
1345
00:51:33,357 --> 00:51:36,160
the percentage of students at state
1346
00:51:36,016 --> 00:51:37,918
universities, at government universities,
1347
00:51:38,062 --> 00:51:39,229
that come from the lowest income families?
1348
00:51:39,229 --> 00:51:40,030
SHANKER: Because they are there with
1349
00:51:40,003 --> 00:51:40,804
government assistance.
1350
00:51:40,831 --> 00:51:41,832
FRIEDMAN: Most cases they are there with -
1351
00:51:41,832 --> 00:51:42,833
SHANKER: They are there with government
1352
00:51:42,833 --> 00:51:45,102
assistance, which in many cases favors
1353
00:51:45,102 --> 00:51:46,937
the private as against the public schools.
1354
00:51:46,937 --> 00:51:48,238
FRIEDMAN: In most cases they are there
1355
00:51:48,238 --> 00:51:49,707
with private scholarships that have
1356
00:51:49,707 --> 00:51:50,641
been contributed by people -
1357
00:51:50,641 --> 00:51:51,475
SHANKER: Some of them,
1358
00:51:51,475 --> 00:51:52,309
some of them, yes.
1359
00:51:52,309 --> 00:51:53,243
FRIEDMAN: -- which is all to the good.
1360
00:51:53,243 --> 00:51:54,144
McKENZIE: Dr. Anrig on this.
1361
00:51:54,144 --> 00:51:55,045
ANRIG: We come back to the point that I
1362
00:51:55,045 --> 00:51:56,347
tried to make earlier with Dartmouth.
1363
00:51:56,347 --> 00:51:57,748
The reason the public higher education
1364
00:51:57,748 --> 00:51:59,717
system developed, the reason that you
1365
00:51:59,717 --> 00:52:02,753
have the UCLAs and others, is not simply
1366
00:52:02,753 --> 00:52:04,722
that government went amuck or bureaucrats
1367
00:52:04,722 --> 00:52:07,291
went that way; but because eight of those
1368
00:52:07,291 --> 00:52:08,993
students were not getting into Dartmouth,
1369
00:52:08,993 --> 00:52:10,694
and there was not a place for them.
1370
00:52:10,694 --> 00:52:12,129
And it was public higher education that
1371
00:52:12,129 --> 00:52:13,797
opened up its doors to those students.
1372
00:52:13,797 --> 00:52:15,466
Those are the youngsters that now have an
1373
00:52:15,466 --> 00:52:17,134
opportunity they wouldn't have had before.
1374
00:52:17,134 --> 00:52:19,503
I think on the issue of loans that it's as with
1375
00:52:19,503 --> 00:52:21,071
all complex human tasks,
1376
00:52:21,071 --> 00:52:22,639
it's not an either/or situation.
1377
00:52:22,639 --> 00:52:24,241
You need a mix of strategies.
1378
00:52:24,241 --> 00:52:25,843
I think you need a mix of strategies on the
1379
00:52:25,843 --> 00:52:27,444
issue of alternatives for
1380
00:52:27,444 --> 00:52:28,779
youngsters in schools.
1381
00:52:28,779 --> 00:52:30,981
I think you can have, as indeed you do have
1382
00:52:30,981 --> 00:52:33,183
alternatives within public school systems.
1383
00:52:33,183 --> 00:52:34,985
I think you can have alternatives
1384
00:52:34,985 --> 00:52:36,086
within schools.
1385
00:52:36,086 --> 00:52:37,921
I think you can have competition through
1386
00:52:37,921 --> 00:52:39,757
open enrollment kinds of arrangements.
1387
00:52:39,757 --> 00:52:42,259
I am fearful, however, always, for those
1388
00:52:42,259 --> 00:52:44,294
eight youngsters than can't get in to
1389
00:52:44,294 --> 00:52:45,896
something which is basically selective
1390
00:52:45,896 --> 00:52:47,931
and exclusive. If you can assure us -
1391
00:52:47,931 --> 00:52:48,799
FRIEDMAN: Well, let's go back -
1392
00:52:48,799 --> 00:52:50,401
ANRIG: -- that those eight youngsters all will
1393
00:52:50,401 --> 00:52:52,236
be provided with equal attention,
1394
00:52:52,236 --> 00:52:54,571
equal opportunity and equal rights, then I
1395
00:52:54,571 --> 00:52:55,339
would begin to be more
1396
00:52:55,339 --> 00:52:56,440
interested in the alternative.
1397
00:52:56,044 --> 00:52:58,046
FRIEDMAN: But I want to suggest to you
1398
00:52:58,442 --> 00:53:00,878
that we're not proposing, neither Jack Coons
1399
00:53:00,878 --> 00:53:02,546
nor I, to dismantle anything.
1400
00:53:02,546 --> 00:53:04,314
We're only saying, put up or shut up.
1401
00:53:04,314 --> 00:53:06,283
Either show that you can produce the kind
1402
00:53:06,283 --> 00:53:09,019
of education people are willing to go and get,
1403
00:53:09,019 --> 00:53:12,623
or reduce your size, go out of business.
1404
00:53:12,623 --> 00:53:14,925
We are only proposing that there be a
1405
00:53:14,925 --> 00:53:16,326
wider range of alternatives.
1406
00:53:16,326 --> 00:53:21,031
Now, it is not true -- let me put a
1407
00:53:21,031 --> 00:53:22,266
different point to you.
1408
00:53:23,167 --> 00:53:25,202
There are a small minority of people
1409
00:53:25,202 --> 00:53:26,437
who are problems.
1410
00:53:26,804 --> 00:53:29,840
Is it desirable to impose a straightjacket on
1411
00:53:29,084 --> 00:53:30,686
a hundred percent of the people, or ninety
1412
00:53:31,442 --> 00:53:33,710
percent of the people, in order to provide
1413
00:53:33,071 --> 00:53:35,340
special assistance or special help to four
1414
00:53:35,979 --> 00:53:37,448
or five or ten percent of the people?
1415
00:53:37,448 --> 00:53:37,457
Not at all.
1416
00:53:38,749 --> 00:53:40,951
I think that there's a big difference between
1417
00:53:40,951 --> 00:53:42,686
two kinds of systems; one kind of system
1418
00:53:42,686 --> 00:53:45,222
in which the great bulk of parents have
1419
00:53:45,222 --> 00:53:47,124
have effective freedom to choose the kind
1420
00:53:47,124 --> 00:53:48,592
of schools their children go to, whether at
1421
00:53:48,592 --> 00:53:49,793
the lower or the higher level.
1422
00:53:49,793 --> 00:53:52,820
And there are programs and provisions for
1423
00:53:53,063 --> 00:53:55,165
a small minority. That's one kind of a system.
1424
00:53:55,165 --> 00:53:56,500
That isn't what we have now.
1425
00:53:56,005 --> 00:53:58,007
What people in the public school system,
1426
00:53:58,502 --> 00:54:00,471
people like yourselves do, they do not
1427
00:54:00,471 --> 00:54:02,339
want to give up the monopoly of the
1428
00:54:02,339 --> 00:54:03,741
public school system any more than
1429
00:54:03,741 --> 00:54:04,908
the Post Office wants to give up
1430
00:54:04,908 --> 00:54:06,977
the monopoly of delivering mail.
1431
00:54:08,145 --> 00:54:09,480
ANRIG: I think you attribute the
1432
00:54:09,048 --> 00:54:10,482
monopoly desire to the bureaucrat.
1433
00:54:11,615 --> 00:54:12,883
And I don't think that's right.
1434
00:54:12,883 --> 00:54:16,220
The concern of the public school is for being
1435
00:54:16,022 --> 00:54:17,690
sure that every youngster in this country
1436
00:54:17,888 --> 00:54:19,990
gets access to a public education.
1437
00:54:19,099 --> 00:54:21,435
FRIEDMAN: Excuse me. You have had an
1438
00:54:22,326 --> 00:54:24,528
attempt to introduce voucher experiments
1439
00:54:24,528 --> 00:54:26,663
around the country. Every one of those
1440
00:54:26,663 --> 00:54:29,466
attempts, as at Alum Rock and elsewhere,
1441
00:54:29,466 --> 00:54:32,503
has been prevented by the opposition
1442
00:54:32,503 --> 00:54:34,171
of the educational bureaucracy.
1443
00:54:34,171 --> 00:54:35,472
ANRIG: Oh, but, no, no, you can't --
1444
00:54:35,472 --> 00:54:36,774
that's a glittering generality.
1445
00:54:36,774 --> 00:54:38,108
FRIEDMAN: That was true in New Hampshire,
1446
00:54:38,108 --> 00:54:39,243
it was true in Connecticut.
1447
00:54:39,243 --> 00:54:40,544
SHANKER: It was not true in Alum Rock
1448
00:54:40,544 --> 00:54:43,013
because, Alum Rock was not what you might
1449
00:54:43,013 --> 00:54:45,482
call a voucher system’ it was a kind of a
1450
00:54:45,482 --> 00:54:47,951
system of free choice within public schools.
1451
00:54:47,951 --> 00:54:50,028
And whereas one school did better in its
1452
00:54:50,721 --> 00:54:52,556
scores, others did worse, and when you
1453
00:54:52,556 --> 00:54:54,024
measured the whole system when it was all
1454
00:54:54,024 --> 00:54:56,160
over, the scores were exactly the same as
1455
00:54:56,016 --> 00:54:57,951
before, except that some students had
1456
00:54:58,095 --> 00:54:59,763
moved to other schools and the grades were
1457
00:54:59,763 --> 00:55:01,865
better in one school as against another.
1458
00:55:01,865 --> 00:55:04,701
We do very strongly oppose a voucher
1459
00:55:04,701 --> 00:55:07,708
system, which will end up with public schools
1460
00:55:07,771 --> 00:55:10,908
being abandoned and thereby destroyed,
1461
00:55:10,908 --> 00:55:12,743
largely. They will become the schools for
1462
00:55:12,743 --> 00:55:14,077
those who can't get in anywhere else,
1463
00:55:14,077 --> 00:55:15,779
or who are expelled elsewhere.
1464
00:55:16,446 --> 00:55:17,948
SHANKER: Because if you compel public
1465
00:55:17,948 --> 00:55:20,684
schools to educate all children, including the
1466
00:55:20,684 --> 00:55:22,819
most difficult, and if you have other
1467
00:55:22,819 --> 00:55:24,121
schools, that have
1468
00:55:24,121 --> 00:55:25,255
FRIEDMAN: It isn't compelling public schools,
1469
00:55:25,255 --> 00:55:26,089
its compelling parents
1470
00:55:26,089 --> 00:55:27,724
SHANKER: No, no, it's public schools.
1471
00:55:27,724 --> 00:55:30,961
The public school cannot say to a parent,
1472
00:55:30,961 --> 00:55:33,463
"Your child is very difficult. Your child throws
1473
00:55:33,463 --> 00:55:35,165
things. Your child screams & yells.
1474
00:55:35,165 --> 00:55:36,867
Your child takes all the attention
1475
00:55:36,867 --> 00:55:39,503
of the teacher. Therefore, get out and go find
1476
00:55:39,503 --> 00:55:40,437
a private school."
1477
00:55:40,437 --> 00:55:42,606
On the other hand, you have hundreds of
1478
00:55:42,606 --> 00:55:44,141
private schools in this country where when
1479
00:55:44,141 --> 00:55:47,218
they get a very disturbed child, out that child
1480
00:55:47,911 --> 00:55:49,213
goes. And where does that child go?
1481
00:55:49,213 --> 00:55:50,514
The public schools must take him.
1482
00:55:50,514 --> 00:55:51,348
FRIEDMAN: But look at -
1483
00:55:51,348 --> 00:55:52,182
SHANKER: And that's what we have.
1484
00:55:52,182 --> 00:55:54,585
We have one system of schools which cream,
1485
00:55:54,585 --> 00:55:56,987
and which throw out the most difficult --
1486
00:55:56,987 --> 00:55:58,355
you know, it would be like the hospital
1487
00:55:58,355 --> 00:55:59,356
throwing out all the sick patients
1488
00:55:59,356 --> 00:56:00,424
and keeping the healthy ones.
1489
00:56:00,424 --> 00:56:01,558
McKENZIE: Well, there we leave
1490
00:56:01,558 --> 00:56:02,426
this week's discussion.
1491
00:56:02,426 --> 00:56:04,127
We hope you'll join us for the next episode
1492
00:56:04,127 --> 00:56:05,829
of Free to Choose.
00:00:01,635 --> 00:00:03,871
Hello, I'm Robert McKenzie and welcome
2
00:00:03,871 --> 00:00:05,639
again to the University of Chicago.
3
00:00:05,639 --> 00:00:08,342
It was here in 1976, that Milton Friedman,
4
00:00:08,342 --> 00:00:09,776
professor of economics, learned that he
5
00:00:09,776 --> 00:00:10,978
had been awarded that year's
6
00:00:10,978 --> 00:00:13,146
Nobel Prize for Economic Science.
7
00:00:13,413 --> 00:00:15,082
Then university is in a sense his
8
00:00:15,082 --> 00:00:16,617
intellectual and professional home.
9
00:00:16,617 --> 00:00:18,652
That's why Free to Choose has been
10
00:00:18,652 --> 00:00:20,587
coming here the past several weeks.
11
00:00:20,587 --> 00:00:22,756
Now the subject tonight is education.
12
00:00:22,756 --> 00:00:24,625
And it's often pointed out that there is
13
00:00:24,625 --> 00:00:26,560
intense dissatisfaction in many quarters
14
00:00:26,056 --> 00:00:27,991
with the state of public educaion.
15
00:00:28,495 --> 00:00:30,864
Billions poured in of taxpayer's money.
16
00:00:30,864 --> 00:00:32,633
Yet too many youngsters leaving school
17
00:00:32,633 --> 00:00:35,002
without adequate skills in reading and other
18
00:00:35,002 --> 00:00:37,604
such equipment they'll need later on in life.
19
00:00:37,604 --> 00:00:38,972
Well now when that happens
20
00:00:38,972 --> 00:00:40,407
what can be done about it?
21
00:00:40,407 --> 00:00:42,509
Milton Friedman, himself a teacher
22
00:00:42,509 --> 00:00:44,544
most of his life has diagnosed the problem.
23
00:00:44,544 --> 00:00:46,880
And he believes he has a solution.
24
00:00:46,088 --> 00:00:47,790
As we'll see in this film.
25
00:00:52,319 --> 00:00:58,592
(opening music)
26
00:01:29,423 --> 00:01:30,557
MILTON FRIEDMAN: These youngsters are
27
00:01:30,557 --> 00:01:32,225
beginning another day at one of
28
00:01:32,225 --> 00:01:33,994
America's public schools, Hyde Park
29
00:01:33,994 --> 00:01:35,495
High School in Boston.
30
00:01:35,495 --> 00:01:37,164
What happens when they pass through
31
00:01:37,164 --> 00:01:40,367
those doors is a vivid illustration of some
32
00:01:40,367 --> 00:01:43,170
of the problems facing America's schools.
33
00:01:49,242 --> 00:01:51,278
They have to pass through metal detectors.
34
00:01:51,745 --> 00:01:53,580
They are faced by security guards
35
00:01:53,058 --> 00:01:54,593
looking for hidden weapons.
36
00:01:55,115 --> 00:01:58,132
They are watched over by armed police.
37
00:02:07,761 --> 00:02:09,196
Isn't that awful?
38
00:02:09,196 --> 00:02:11,465
What a way for kids to have to go to school,
39
00:02:11,465 --> 00:02:13,667
through metal detectors and to be searched.
40
00:02:13,667 --> 00:02:15,569
What can they conceivably learn
41
00:02:15,569 --> 00:02:17,904
under such circumstances?
42
00:02:17,904 --> 00:02:19,981
Nobody is happy with this kind of education.
43
00:02:20,674 --> 00:02:22,376
The taxpayers surely aren't.
44
00:02:22,376 --> 00:02:24,311
This isn't cheap education.
45
00:02:24,311 --> 00:02:27,318
After all, those uniformed policemen,
46
00:02:27,381 --> 00:02:29,616
those metal detectors have to be paid for.
47
00:02:35,589 --> 00:02:37,324
And what about the broken windows,
48
00:02:37,324 --> 00:02:39,192
the torn schoolbooks, and the
49
00:02:39,192 --> 00:02:41,028
smashed school equipment?
50
00:02:41,028 --> 00:02:43,430
The teachers who teach here don't like
51
00:02:43,043 --> 00:02:44,911
this kind of situation.
52
00:02:45,298 --> 00:02:46,666
The students don't like to
53
00:02:46,666 --> 00:02:48,301
come here to go to school.
54
00:02:48,802 --> 00:02:51,071
And most of all, the parents--
55
00:02:51,071 --> 00:02:53,373
they are the ones who get the worst deal.
56
00:02:53,373 --> 00:02:55,242
They pay taxes like the rest of us,
57
00:02:55,242 --> 00:02:58,145
and they are just as concerned about the
58
00:02:58,145 --> 00:03:00,380
kind of education that their kids get
59
00:03:00,038 --> 00:03:01,540
as the rest of us are.
60
00:03:01,882 --> 00:03:04,317
They know their kids are getting a bad
61
00:03:04,317 --> 00:03:07,054
education, but they feel trapped.
62
00:03:07,054 --> 00:03:10,090
Many of them can see no alternative
63
00:03:10,009 --> 00:03:12,778
but to continue sending their kids to
64
00:03:12,859 --> 00:03:15,095
schools like this.
65
00:03:21,701 --> 00:03:24,237
To go back to the beginning, it all started
66
00:03:24,237 --> 00:03:26,314
with the fine idea that every child should
67
00:03:27,007 --> 00:03:28,975
have a chance to learn his three Rs.
68
00:03:31,478 --> 00:03:33,947
Sometimes in June when it gets hot,
69
00:03:33,947 --> 00:03:35,715
the kids come out in the yard to do
70
00:03:35,715 --> 00:03:37,651
their lessons, all 15 of them,
71
00:03:37,651 --> 00:03:40,287
ages 5 to 13, along with their teacher.
72
00:03:40,287 --> 00:03:42,989
This is the last one-room schoolhouse
73
00:03:42,989 --> 00:03:45,258
still operating in the state of Vermont.
74
00:03:45,258 --> 00:03:47,427
That is the way it used to be.
75
00:03:48,228 --> 00:03:50,697
Parental control, parents choosing
76
00:03:50,697 --> 00:03:53,166
the teacher, parents monitoring
77
00:03:53,166 --> 00:03:55,802
the schooling, parents even getting together
78
00:03:55,802 --> 00:03:58,071
and chipping in to paint the schoolhouse,
79
00:03:58,071 --> 00:04:00,207
as they did here just a few weeks ago.
80
00:04:01,007 --> 00:04:04,034
Parental concern is still here, as much in the
81
00:04:04,277 --> 00:04:07,214
slums of the big cities as in bucolic Vermont.
82
00:04:08,315 --> 00:04:10,951
But control by parents over the schooling
83
00:04:10,951 --> 00:04:13,587
of their children is today the exception,
84
00:04:13,587 --> 00:04:15,455
not the rule.
85
00:04:15,455 --> 00:04:17,524
Increasingly, schools have come under the
86
00:04:17,524 --> 00:04:19,926
control of centralized administrations,
87
00:04:19,926 --> 00:04:22,013
professional educators deciding what shall be
88
00:04:22,796 --> 00:04:25,465
taught, who shall do the teaching, and even
89
00:04:25,465 --> 00:04:28,472
what children shall go to what school.
90
00:04:29,269 --> 00:04:31,538
The people who lose most from this system
91
00:04:31,538 --> 00:04:34,040
are the poor and the disadvantaged
92
00:04:34,004 --> 00:04:35,339
in the large cities.
93
00:04:35,575 --> 00:04:36,910
They are simply stuck.
94
00:04:36,091 --> 00:04:37,826
They have no alternative.
95
00:04:47,921 --> 00:04:49,322
Of course, if you are well off
96
00:04:49,322 --> 00:04:50,690
you do have a choice.
97
00:04:50,069 --> 00:04:52,171
You can send your child to a private school,
98
00:04:52,792 --> 00:04:55,028
or you can move to an area where the
99
00:04:55,028 --> 00:04:56,563
public schools are excellent,
100
00:04:56,563 --> 00:04:58,365
as the parents of many of these
101
00:04:58,365 --> 00:04:59,766
students have done.
102
00:05:04,671 --> 00:05:06,306
These students are graduating from
103
00:05:06,306 --> 00:05:08,608
Weston High School in one of Boston's
104
00:05:08,608 --> 00:05:10,110
wealthier suburbs.
105
00:05:12,646 --> 00:05:15,282
Their parents pay taxes instead of tuition,
106
00:05:15,282 --> 00:05:17,184
and they certainly get better value for their
107
00:05:17,184 --> 00:05:19,686
money than do the parents in Hyde Park.
108
00:05:20,053 --> 00:05:22,222
That is partly because they have kept a good
109
00:05:22,222 --> 00:05:24,524
deal of control over the local schools,
110
00:05:24,524 --> 00:05:26,927
and in the process, they have managed
111
00:05:26,927 --> 00:05:28,862
to retain many of the virtues of the
112
00:05:28,862 --> 00:05:30,664
one-room schoolhouse.
113
00:05:37,137 --> 00:05:39,339
Students here, like Barbara King,
114
00:05:39,339 --> 00:05:42,242
get the equivalent of a private education.
115
00:05:43,243 --> 00:05:45,478
They have excellent recreational facilities.
116
00:05:52,519 --> 00:05:54,487
They have a teaching staff that is dedicated
117
00:05:54,487 --> 00:05:56,723
and responsive to parents and students.
118
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There is an atmosphere which encourages
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learning, yet the cost per pupil here is no
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higher than in many of our inner city schools.
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The difference is that at Weston, it all goes
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for education, and that the parents
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still retain a good deal of control.
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Unfortunately, most parents have lost control
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over how their tax money in spent.
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Avabelle goes to Hyde Park High.
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Her parents, too, want her to have a good
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education, but many of the students here are
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not interested in schooling, and the teachers,
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however dedicated, soon lose heart
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in an atmosphere like this.
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Avabelle's parents are certainly not getting
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value for their tax money.
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CAROLINE BELL, PARENT: I think it is a
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shame, really, that parents are being
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ripped off like we are.
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I am talking about parents like me that work
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every day, scuffle to try to make ends meet.
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We send our kids to school hoping that they
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will receive something that will benefit them
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in the future for when they go out here
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and compete in the job market.
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Unfortunately, none of that is taking place
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out at Hyde Park.
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FRIEDMAN: Children like Ava are being short-
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changed by a system that was
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designed to help.
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But there are ways to give all parents more
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say over their children's schooling.
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This is a fund-raising evening for a school
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supported by a voluntary organization,
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New York's Inner City Scholarship Fund.
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The prints that have brought people here
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have been loaned by a wealthy
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Japanese industrialist.
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Events like this have helped raise two million
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dollars to finance Catholic parochial
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schools in New York.
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The people here are part of a
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long American tradition.
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The results of their private voluntary
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activities have been remarkable.
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This is one of the poorest neighborhoods
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in New York City: the Bronx.
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Yet this parochial school, supported by
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the fund, is a joy to visit.
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The youngsters here from poor families are
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at Saint John Christians because their
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parents have picked this school.
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And their parents are paying some of the
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costs from their own pockets.
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The children are well behaved,
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eager to learn.
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The teachers are dedicated.
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The cost per pupil here is far less than in
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the public schools, yet on the average
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the children are two grades ahead.
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That is because teachers and parents are
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free to choose how the children
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shall be taught.
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Private money has replaced the tax money,
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and so control has been taken away from the
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bureaucrats and put back where it belongs.
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This doesn't work just for younger children.
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In the 60's, Harlem was devastated by riots.
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It was a hot bed of trouble.
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Many teenagers dropped out of school.
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Groups of concerned parents and teachers
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decided to do something about it.
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They used private funds to take over
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00:09:48,521 --> 00:09:50,557
empty stores, and they set up what
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00:09:50,557 --> 00:09:52,826
became known as storefront schools.
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One of the first and most successful
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was Harlem Prep.
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It was designed to cater to students for
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whom conventional education had failed.
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Many of the teachers didn't have the right
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pieces of paper to qualify for
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employment in public schools.
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That didn't stop them from
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doing a good job here.
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A lot of the students had been
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misfits and dropouts.
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Here they found the sort of
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teaching they wanted.
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After all, they had made a deliberate
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choice to come to Harlem Prep.
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It was a very successful school.
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Many students went on to college,
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and some to leading colleges.
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00:10:36,202 --> 00:10:37,770
But after some years, the school
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00:10:37,077 --> 00:10:38,379
ran short of cash.
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The board of education offered Ed Carpenter,
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00:10:41,474 --> 00:10:43,309
the head of the school and one of its
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founders, tax money, provided he
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would conform to their regulations.
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After a long battle to preserve independence,
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he finally gave in.
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The school was taken over by bureaucrats.
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ED CARPENTER, FORMER PRINCIPAL:
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I felt that a school
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like Harlem Prep would certainly die
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and not prosper under the rigid bureaucracy
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of a board of education.
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We had to see what was going to happen.
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I didn't believe it was going to be good.
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I am right. What has happened since we
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have come to the board of education is not
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all good -- it is not all bad --
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but it is more bad than good.
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FRIEDMAN: The school may not look
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different yet, but 30 of the
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former teachers have gone.
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Ed Carpenter has resigned.
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The school is being moved to a
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traditional school building.
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No one, except maybe the bureaucrats,
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is very optimistic about its future.
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Unfortunately, the strangling of successful
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experiments by bureaucrats is not unusual.
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The same thing happened in California,
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at a place called Alum Rock.
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00:11:58,651 --> 00:12:00,520
For three years parents at this school could
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choose to send their children to any of
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00:12:02,655 --> 00:12:05,058
several specially created mini-schools,
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each with a different curriculum.
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The experiment was designed to restore a
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choice to those who were most closely
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involved, the parents and the teachers.
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DON AYERS, FORMER PRINCIPAL:
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Probably the most significant thing that
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happened was that the teachers,
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for the first time, had some power,
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and they were able to build the curriculum to
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fit the needs of the children as they saw it.
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The state and local school board did not
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dictate the kind of curriculum that was
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used in the McCollum School.
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The parents became more
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involved in this school.
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They attended more meetings.
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Also, they had a power to pull their child out
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of that particular mini-school if they
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chose another mini-school.
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FRIEDMAN: Giving parents greater choice
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had a dramatic effect on educational quality.
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In terms of test scores, this school went from
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13th to 2nd place among the schools in its
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district, but the experiment is now over.
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When school resumed after the summer
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vacation, this was just another public school,
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back in the hands of the bureaucrats.
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Giving parents a choice is a good idea,
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yet it always meets with opposition from
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the educational establishment.
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This is Ashford,
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a town in the south of England.
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For four years, there have been efforts here
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to introduce an experiment in
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greater parental choice.
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Parents would be given vouchers
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covering the cost of schooling.
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They could use the voucher to send their
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child to any school of their choice.
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I have long believed that children,
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teachers, all of us, would benefit
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from a voucher system.
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But the headmaster here, who happens also
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to be secretary of the local teacher's union,
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has very different views about
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introducing vouchers.
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MR. DENNIS GEE, HEADMASTER: We see this
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as a barrier between us and the parent.
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This sticky little piece of paper in their hand,
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coming in and under due writ,
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“you will do this or else.”
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We make our judgment because we believe
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it is in the best interest of every Willy
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and every little Johnny that we have got,
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and not because someone is going to say,
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“If you don't do it, we will do that.”
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It is this sort of philosophy of the
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marketplace that we object to.
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FRIEDMAN: In other words, Mr. Gee objects
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to giving the customer, in this case
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the parent, anything to say about the kind
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of schooling his child gets.
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Instead, the bureaucrats should decide.
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GEE: We are answerable to parents
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through our government bodies,
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through the inspectorate of the county
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council and through Her Majesty's
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inspectorate to the secretary of state.
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These are people, professionals, who are
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able to make professional judgments.
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FRIEDMAN: But things look very different
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from the point of view of parents.
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Jason Walton's parents had to fight the
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00:15:21,012 --> 00:15:22,947
bureaucracy, the professionals,
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for a year before they could get him
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into the school that they thought
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was best suited to his needs.
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MAURICE WALTON, PARENT: As the present
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system stands, I think virtually parents
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have got no freedom of choice whatsoever.
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They are told what is good for them by the
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teachers, and are told that the teachers
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are doing a great job,
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and I’ve just got no say at all.
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If the voucher system were introduced,
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I think it would bring teachers and
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parents together, I think closer.
333
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A parent that is worried about his child
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would remove their child from the school
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that wasn't giving it good service
336
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and take it to one that was.
337
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And if a school is going to crumble
338
00:16:06,199 --> 00:16:09,802
because it's got nothing but vandalism,
339
00:16:09,802 --> 00:16:11,938
it is generally slack on discipline,
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00:16:11,938 --> 00:16:13,940
and the children aren't learning well,
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that is a good thing from my point of view.
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00:16:19,078 --> 00:16:20,546
FRIEDMAN: Even good schools like this
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00:16:20,546 --> 00:16:22,381
would benefit from a voucher system,
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00:16:22,381 --> 00:16:24,116
from having to shape up or see
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parents take children elsewhere.
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00:16:25,918 --> 00:16:27,553
But that is not how it looks to
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00:16:27,553 --> 00:16:29,021
the head master.
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GEE: I am not sure that parents know what
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is best educationally for their children.
350
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They know what is best for them to eat,
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they know the best environment they can
352
00:16:38,831 --> 00:16:42,668
provide at home, but we've been trained to
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00:16:42,668 --> 00:16:44,755
ascertain the problems of children,
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00:16:45,538 --> 00:16:48,107
to detect their weaknesses, and put right
355
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those things that need putting right,
356
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and we want to do this freely,
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with the cooperation of parents,
358
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and not under any undue strains.
359
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WALTON: I can understand the teacher
360
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saying, yes, it is a gun at my head,
361
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but they have got the same gun at
362
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the parent’s head at the moment.
363
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The parent goes up to the teacher and says,
364
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well, I am not satisfied with what you are
365
00:17:08,494 --> 00:17:10,496
doing, and the teacher can say, well,
366
00:17:10,496 --> 00:17:12,798
tough, you can't take him away,
367
00:17:12,798 --> 00:17:14,133
you can't move him,
368
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you can't do what you like,
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so go away and stop bothering me.
370
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That can be the attitude of some
371
00:17:19,272 --> 00:17:20,973
teachers today -- it often is.
372
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But now that the positions are being
373
00:17:23,476 --> 00:17:25,244
reversed and the roles are changed,
374
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I can only say tough on the teachers.
375
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Let them pull their socks up and give us a
376
00:17:29,849 --> 00:17:32,685
better deal and let us participate more.
377
00:17:34,186 --> 00:17:35,688
FRIEDMAN: In America there is one part
378
00:17:35,688 --> 00:17:37,523
of education where the market
379
00:17:37,523 --> 00:17:38,991
has had extensive scope.
380
00:17:38,991 --> 00:17:40,693
That is higher education.
381
00:17:40,693 --> 00:17:42,795
These students attend Dartmouth College,
382
00:17:42,795 --> 00:17:45,812
a private school founded in 1769.
383
00:17:46,465 --> 00:17:48,234
The college is supported entirely by
384
00:17:48,234 --> 00:17:51,003
private donations, income from endowment,
385
00:17:51,003 --> 00:17:52,505
and student fees.
386
00:17:52,905 --> 00:17:55,952
It has a high reputation and a fine record.
387
00:17:58,978 --> 00:18:00,579
Ninety-five percent of the students who
388
00:18:00,579 --> 00:18:03,082
enroll here complete their undergraduate
389
00:18:03,082 --> 00:18:04,584
course and get a degree.
390
00:18:07,153 --> 00:18:09,088
The students here pay high fees,
391
00:18:09,088 --> 00:18:11,290
fees which cover most of the cost of
392
00:18:11,029 --> 00:18:12,998
the schooling which they get.
393
00:18:13,259 --> 00:18:14,727
Most of them get the money from
394
00:18:14,727 --> 00:18:17,396
their parents, but some are on scholarships
395
00:18:17,396 --> 00:18:18,998
provided either by Dartmouth or
396
00:18:18,998 --> 00:18:20,399
by outside sources.
397
00:18:20,399 --> 00:18:22,466
Still others take out loans to pay the
398
00:18:23,069 --> 00:18:24,704
costs of schooling, loans which they
399
00:18:24,704 --> 00:18:26,672
will have to pay back years later.
400
00:18:26,672 --> 00:18:29,141
Still others work, either during the school
401
00:18:29,141 --> 00:18:31,210
year or during the summer, to pay the costs.
402
00:18:34,246 --> 00:18:35,448
Many students work in the
403
00:18:35,448 --> 00:18:37,049
college's own hotel.
404
00:18:37,049 --> 00:18:39,251
This girl is helping to pay her own way,
405
00:18:39,785 --> 00:18:41,554
which is pretty good evidence that she is
406
00:18:41,554 --> 00:18:43,489
serious about getting an education.
407
00:18:48,794 --> 00:18:50,463
Parents of prospective students come
408
00:18:50,463 --> 00:18:52,865
here on shopping expeditions to check out
409
00:18:52,865 --> 00:18:54,667
the product before they buy.
410
00:18:56,736 --> 00:18:59,405
What you have here is a private market
411
00:18:59,405 --> 00:19:01,907
in education, and the college is
412
00:19:01,907 --> 00:19:02,942
selling schooling.
413
00:19:02,942 --> 00:19:05,277
The students are buying schooling.
414
00:19:05,277 --> 00:19:08,581
And as in most such markets, both sides
415
00:19:08,581 --> 00:19:11,588
have a strong incentive to serve one another.
416
00:19:12,652 --> 00:19:15,821
For the college, it has a strong incentive
417
00:19:15,821 --> 00:19:17,456
to provide the kind of schooling
418
00:19:17,456 --> 00:19:19,158
that its students want.
419
00:19:19,158 --> 00:19:20,926
If it doesn't, they can simply
420
00:19:20,926 --> 00:19:23,029
pick up and go elsewhere.
421
00:19:23,029 --> 00:19:24,864
For the students,
422
00:19:24,864 --> 00:19:26,365
they want to get their money's worth.
423
00:19:26,365 --> 00:19:28,667
They are customers, and like every customer
424
00:19:28,667 --> 00:19:30,754
everywhere, they want to get full value for
425
00:19:31,537 --> 00:19:33,105
the money they are paying.
426
00:19:40,813 --> 00:19:43,582
And so much of the success here comes from
427
00:19:43,582 --> 00:19:45,684
the fact that students understand precisely
428
00:19:45,684 --> 00:19:47,620
the cost involved and they are
429
00:19:47,062 --> 00:19:48,763
determined to get their money's worth.
430
00:19:50,389 --> 00:19:51,490
REGINA BARRECA, STUDENT:
431
00:19:51,049 --> 00:19:52,484
. . . they send you sheets saying how much
432
00:19:52,925 --> 00:19:54,927
everything costs all the time, so that you
433
00:19:54,927 --> 00:19:56,062
know exactly, you can break
434
00:19:56,062 --> 00:19:57,229
it down per lecture.
435
00:19:57,229 --> 00:20:00,966
And when you see each lecture costing $35,
436
00:20:00,966 --> 00:20:02,234
and you think of the other things you could
437
00:20:02,234 --> 00:20:04,537
be doing with the $35, you're making very
438
00:20:04,537 --> 00:20:06,138
sure you're going to that lecture.
439
00:20:07,873 --> 00:20:09,075
FRIEDMAN: Many of the buildings and
440
00:20:09,075 --> 00:20:11,110
facilities at Dartmouth have been donated
441
00:20:11,011 --> 00:20:12,813
by private individuals and foundations.
442
00:20:12,912 --> 00:20:15,748
Like other private universities, Dartmouth
443
00:20:15,748 --> 00:20:18,317
has combined the selling of monuments with
444
00:20:18,317 --> 00:20:20,286
the provision of education and the one
445
00:20:20,286 --> 00:20:22,421
activity reinforces the other.
446
00:20:26,559 --> 00:20:28,427
The students, in effect, earn part of their
447
00:20:28,427 --> 00:20:30,663
keep by helping to solicit alumni for
448
00:20:30,663 --> 00:20:33,699
contributions, knowing full well that they will
449
00:20:33,699 --> 00:20:36,706
be solicited in their turn.
450
00:20:38,771 --> 00:20:41,173
It is another way in which the real value
451
00:20:41,173 --> 00:20:44,190
of education is brought home.
452
00:20:59,058 --> 00:21:01,093
This may not be the usual idea of an
453
00:21:01,093 --> 00:21:03,696
economic market, but it is nonetheless a
454
00:21:03,696 --> 00:21:06,198
marketplace where buyers can choose and
455
00:21:06,198 --> 00:21:08,200
sellers must compete for customers.
456
00:21:10,903 --> 00:21:12,771
What happens when the educational
457
00:21:12,771 --> 00:21:14,240
market is distorted?
458
00:21:14,807 --> 00:21:17,176
Look at state colleges and universities.
459
00:21:17,176 --> 00:21:20,045
Their fees are generally very low, paying for
460
00:21:20,045 --> 00:21:23,182
only a small part of the cost of schooling.
461
00:21:24,049 --> 00:21:26,152
They attract serious students,
462
00:21:26,152 --> 00:21:29,121
just as interested in their education as the
463
00:21:29,121 --> 00:21:30,789
students at Dartmouth or other private
464
00:21:30,789 --> 00:21:32,846
schools, but they also attract a great many
465
00:21:33,359 --> 00:21:37,163
others; students who come because fees are
466
00:21:37,163 --> 00:21:39,398
low, residential housing is good,
467
00:21:39,398 --> 00:21:41,700
food is good, and above all there
468
00:21:41,007 --> 00:21:43,310
are lots of their peers.
469
00:21:45,204 --> 00:21:47,473
It's a pleasant interlude for them.
470
00:21:49,275 --> 00:21:51,977
The University of California at Los Angeles.
471
00:21:54,313 --> 00:21:56,148
For those students who are here as a
472
00:21:56,148 --> 00:21:58,717
pleasant interlude, going to class is a price
473
00:21:58,717 --> 00:22:01,320
they pay to be here, not the product
474
00:22:01,032 --> 00:22:02,533
they are buying.
475
00:22:03,022 --> 00:22:03,956
DARRELL DEARMONE, LECTURER:
476
00:22:03,956 --> 00:22:07,359
We frequently wind up with people
477
00:22:07,359 --> 00:22:10,963
who cannot compete favorably with even
478
00:22:10,963 --> 00:22:13,299
the average person here.
479
00:22:17,436 --> 00:22:19,672
There is a magnet here for everything.
480
00:22:19,672 --> 00:22:21,073
We have the best weather,
481
00:22:21,073 --> 00:22:23,075
practically speaking, in the country.
482
00:22:23,075 --> 00:22:25,152
Hollywood is here, Beverly Hills is here,
483
00:22:25,845 --> 00:22:28,547
the social scene, the television industry
484
00:22:28,547 --> 00:22:30,583
in this country is centered here.
485
00:22:32,518 --> 00:22:34,353
FRIEDMAN: The justification for using tax
486
00:22:34,353 --> 00:22:36,288
money to support institutions like this is
487
00:22:36,288 --> 00:22:38,424
supposed to be so that every youngster,
488
00:22:38,424 --> 00:22:40,726
regardless of the income or wealth of his
489
00:22:40,726 --> 00:22:42,528
parents, can go to college.
490
00:22:42,528 --> 00:22:44,363
A few youngsters from poor families
491
00:22:44,363 --> 00:22:46,665
are here, but not very many.
492
00:22:53,339 --> 00:22:55,374
Most of these students are from middle and
493
00:22:55,374 --> 00:22:57,576
upper income families, yet everybody,
494
00:22:57,576 --> 00:23:00,012
whatever his income, pays taxes to
495
00:23:00,012 --> 00:23:01,847
help support these institutions.
496
00:23:06,752 --> 00:23:09,521
That is a disgraceful situation.
497
00:23:09,521 --> 00:23:11,223
It is hardly what public education
498
00:23:11,223 --> 00:23:12,591
was all about.
499
00:23:12,591 --> 00:23:14,893
These students are being subsidized by
500
00:23:14,893 --> 00:23:16,695
people who will never go to college.
501
00:23:18,013 --> 00:23:20,315
That means that on the average people who
502
00:23:20,432 --> 00:23:22,101
will end up with higher incomes are being
503
00:23:22,101 --> 00:23:24,069
subsidized by people who will
504
00:23:24,069 --> 00:23:25,938
end up with lower incomes.
505
00:23:26,372 --> 00:23:28,140
And in addition, the quality of
506
00:23:28,014 --> 00:23:29,949
undergraduate education is poor.
507
00:23:35,147 --> 00:23:37,283
Undergraduate teaching is not what
508
00:23:37,283 --> 00:23:39,251
UCLA is famous for.
509
00:23:39,251 --> 00:23:42,187
Besides from its athletic teams, UCLA's
510
00:23:42,187 --> 00:23:44,264
reputation is for graduate work and research.
511
00:23:52,631 --> 00:23:54,500
Faculty members have every incentive
512
00:23:54,005 --> 00:23:56,507
to do research, that's the way to advance
513
00:23:57,002 --> 00:23:57,836
in their profession.
514
00:23:57,836 --> 00:23:59,705
They have much less to gain
515
00:23:59,705 --> 00:24:00,472
by good teaching.
516
00:24:12,451 --> 00:24:14,486
Only about half of those who enroll in
517
00:24:14,486 --> 00:24:16,722
UCLA complete the undergraduate course.
518
00:24:17,389 --> 00:24:20,326
Compare that with the 95% at Dartmouth
519
00:24:20,326 --> 00:24:22,027
who finish the work for their degrees.
520
00:24:22,261 --> 00:24:24,296
What a waste of student time,
521
00:24:24,296 --> 00:24:26,732
and what a waste of taxpayers' money.
522
00:24:32,204 --> 00:24:33,405
What should we do about this
523
00:24:33,405 --> 00:24:35,207
disgraceful situation?
524
00:24:35,207 --> 00:24:37,843
We must not deny any young man or
525
00:24:37,843 --> 00:24:40,479
woman who desires one an education.
526
00:24:41,008 --> 00:24:44,311
Everyone who has the capacity and the
527
00:24:44,383 --> 00:24:46,118
the desire to have a higher education
528
00:24:46,118 --> 00:24:47,453
should be able to do so,
529
00:24:47,453 --> 00:24:50,689
provided they are willing to undertake the
530
00:24:50,689 --> 00:24:53,192
obligation to pay the cost of their schooling,
531
00:24:53,192 --> 00:24:56,395
either currently or in later years out of the
532
00:24:56,395 --> 00:24:58,998
higher income that their education will
533
00:24:58,998 --> 00:25:00,766
make possible.
534
00:25:01,633 --> 00:25:04,136
We now have a governmental program of
535
00:25:04,136 --> 00:25:06,905
loans, which is supposedly directed to this
536
00:25:06,905 --> 00:25:08,952
objective, but it's a loan program
537
00:25:09,375 --> 00:25:10,476
in name only.
538
00:25:10,476 --> 00:25:12,644
The interest rate charged is well below
539
00:25:12,644 --> 00:25:13,579
the market rate.
540
00:25:13,579 --> 00:25:16,482
Many of these loans are never paid back.
541
00:25:17,316 --> 00:25:20,219
We must have a system under which those
542
00:25:20,219 --> 00:25:23,122
who are not able or do not go to college
543
00:25:23,122 --> 00:25:26,525
are not forced to pay for those who do.
544
00:25:33,132 --> 00:25:34,800
As we have seen, the market works
545
00:25:34,008 --> 00:25:34,875
in education.
546
00:25:35,667 --> 00:25:37,503
When people pay for what they get,
547
00:25:37,503 --> 00:25:38,804
they value what they get.
548
00:25:39,338 --> 00:25:41,273
The market works in higher education.
549
00:25:45,577 --> 00:25:47,980
It can also work at the level of primary
550
00:25:47,098 --> 00:25:48,733
and secondary education.
551
00:25:56,188 --> 00:25:58,757
Until we change the way we run our public
552
00:25:58,757 --> 00:26:01,593
schools, far too many children will end up
553
00:26:01,593 --> 00:26:03,162
without being able to read, write,
554
00:26:03,162 --> 00:26:04,263
or do arithmetic.
555
00:26:04,263 --> 00:26:06,565
That is not what any of us wants.
556
00:26:10,068 --> 00:26:13,772
The system is not working, and it is not
557
00:26:13,772 --> 00:26:16,819
working because it lacks a vital ingredient.
558
00:26:17,242 --> 00:26:20,289
The experts mean well, but a centralized
559
00:26:20,712 --> 00:26:24,316
system cannot possibly have that degree of
560
00:26:24,316 --> 00:26:27,920
personal concern for each individual child
561
00:26:27,092 --> 00:26:30,161
that we have as parents.
562
00:26:30,989 --> 00:26:32,758
The centralization produces
563
00:26:32,758 --> 00:26:34,126
deadening uniformity.
564
00:26:34,126 --> 00:26:36,628
It destroys the experimentation
565
00:26:36,628 --> 00:26:39,131
that is a fundamental source of progress.
566
00:26:39,131 --> 00:26:42,768
What we need to do is to enable parents,
567
00:26:42,768 --> 00:26:46,171
by vouchers or other means, to have more
568
00:26:46,171 --> 00:26:48,674
say about the school which their
569
00:26:48,674 --> 00:26:51,176
child goes to; a public school or a
570
00:26:51,176 --> 00:26:53,912
private school, whichever meets the need
571
00:26:53,912 --> 00:26:55,714
of the child best.
572
00:26:56,782 --> 00:26:59,985
That will inevitably give them also more say
573
00:26:59,985 --> 00:27:01,620
about what their children are taught,
574
00:27:01,062 --> 00:27:03,197
and how they are taught.
575
00:27:04,099 --> 00:27:08,036
Market competition is the surest way to
576
00:27:08,927 --> 00:27:10,796
improve the quality and promote innovation,
577
00:27:10,796 --> 00:27:14,500
in education as in every other field.
578
00:27:38,991 --> 00:27:39,658
ROBERT MCKENZIE: The distinguished
579
00:27:39,658 --> 00:27:41,593
guests tonight are all intimately concerned
580
00:27:41,593 --> 00:27:44,129
with the world of education, so let’s find out
581
00:27:44,129 --> 00:27:46,231
how they react to Friedman's analysis.
582
00:27:46,231 --> 00:27:47,432
ALBERT SHANKER: I think it's very foolish
583
00:27:47,432 --> 00:27:48,634
to throw out something that you've got
584
00:27:48,634 --> 00:27:50,235
and that has some shortcomings,
585
00:27:50,235 --> 00:27:53,438
but is very, very good in order to try out
586
00:27:53,438 --> 00:27:55,374
someone's pet ideas
587
00:27:55,374 --> 00:27:58,076
Well, before we ask Milton to reply to that,
588
00:27:58,076 --> 00:28:00,712
let’s get other views on the same quotation,
589
00:28:00,712 --> 00:28:03,081
"Market competition is the surest way to
590
00:28:03,081 --> 00:28:05,450
improve the quality and promote innovation
591
00:28:05,045 --> 00:28:07,102
in education." John Coons.
592
00:28:08,002 --> 00:28:09,837
Well, of course, there's enormous evidence
593
00:28:09,855 --> 00:28:10,956
that that is exactly right,
594
00:28:10,956 --> 00:28:13,992
and we see it in the case in California
595
00:28:13,992 --> 00:28:15,661
that I observe every day,
596
00:28:15,661 --> 00:28:17,863
of low income children whose families
597
00:28:17,863 --> 00:28:20,198
are making great sacrifices to go to schools
598
00:28:20,198 --> 00:28:23,135
that operate at a third of the cost of public
599
00:28:23,135 --> 00:28:25,837
education and are turning out kids who are
600
00:28:25,837 --> 00:28:27,439
performing and are learning and achieving
601
00:28:27,439 --> 00:28:28,540
at very high levels.
602
00:28:28,054 --> 00:28:29,155
On the other hand, I wouldn't want to
603
00:28:29,641 --> 00:28:33,612
suggest that unlimited competition is
604
00:28:33,612 --> 00:28:34,813
the answer to every problem.
605
00:28:34,813 --> 00:28:36,214
And, indeed, the whole definition of
606
00:28:36,214 --> 00:28:37,616
competition is very ambiguous.
607
00:28:37,616 --> 00:28:40,018
It seems to me that if one is truly
608
00:28:40,018 --> 00:28:42,020
interested in liberty, which I think is the
609
00:28:42,002 --> 00:28:43,304
ultimate value that Milton Friedman
610
00:28:43,322 --> 00:28:45,390
talks about, one has to be very careful
611
00:28:45,039 --> 00:28:48,243
how he structures the kinds of subsidies that
612
00:28:48,594 --> 00:28:50,729
are proposed for education so that you do
613
00:28:50,729 --> 00:28:53,398
not wind up with the poor in one kind of
614
00:28:53,398 --> 00:28:54,866
school and the rich all in the other,
615
00:28:54,866 --> 00:28:56,953
and very little liberty for low-income people
616
00:28:57,736 --> 00:28:59,304
left over, which is what is what I think
617
00:28:59,304 --> 00:28:59,905
he has in mind.
618
00:29:00,372 --> 00:29:01,640
That is, I don't think he has
619
00:29:01,064 --> 00:29:02,399
that result in mind. He has the hope
620
00:29:02,975 --> 00:29:05,711
in mind of liberty, but that it's going to
621
00:29:05,711 --> 00:29:07,012
need a certain kind of tailoring
622
00:29:07,012 --> 00:29:08,614
before it works that way.
623
00:29:08,614 --> 00:29:09,815
SHANKER: I think your remarks about free
624
00:29:09,815 --> 00:29:12,872
competition are very unfair for a
625
00:29:13,385 --> 00:29:15,153
very simple reason. You cannot have free
626
00:29:15,153 --> 00:29:17,089
competition where one group of schools
627
00:29:17,089 --> 00:29:19,024
must accept every single student who
628
00:29:19,024 --> 00:29:21,093
comes along, no matter what his physical or
629
00:29:21,093 --> 00:29:22,861
emotional handicaps or other problems;
630
00:29:23,195 --> 00:29:24,930
whereas the very essence of a private school
631
00:29:24,093 --> 00:29:25,528
and your voucher school is that they're
632
00:29:26,365 --> 00:29:27,799
going to be able to keep out the students.
633
00:29:28,004 --> 00:29:31,091
And the finest schools that you saw in
634
00:29:32,027 --> 00:29:34,029
that film were schools that deliberately
635
00:29:34,272 --> 00:29:36,074
kept out the most difficult students.
636
00:29:36,074 --> 00:29:37,609
Of course you can have a wonderful school
637
00:29:37,609 --> 00:29:40,512
if you pick students whose parents...
638
00:29:40,512 --> 00:29:41,413
(Several talking at once)
639
00:29:41,413 --> 00:29:43,849
...no, no. Whose parents are so highly
640
00:29:43,849 --> 00:29:45,550
motivated, that they're willing to spend
641
00:29:45,055 --> 00:29:46,390
more money, and willing to go out of
642
00:29:46,885 --> 00:29:48,353
their way to do something like that?
643
00:29:48,353 --> 00:29:50,122
Now the public schools have to take the
644
00:29:50,122 --> 00:29:51,757
handicapped, must provide bilingual
645
00:29:51,757 --> 00:29:54,059
education, must engage in bussing or
646
00:29:54,059 --> 00:29:56,228
other programs in terms of integration,
647
00:29:56,228 --> 00:29:58,497
must do all of these things;
648
00:29:58,497 --> 00:30:00,098
whereas the private school can come
649
00:30:00,098 --> 00:30:02,034
along and say, "Well, if your child has
650
00:30:02,034 --> 00:30:03,435
no problems, you know what we can do?
651
00:30:03,435 --> 00:30:04,903
We can offer you a school where
652
00:30:04,903 --> 00:30:06,004
you don't have to sit next to
653
00:30:06,004 --> 00:30:07,372
a child with these other problems.
654
00:30:07,372 --> 00:30:08,240
We're gonna put you next to
655
00:30:08,024 --> 00:30:09,959
other children who are advantaged.
656
00:30:10,909 --> 00:30:12,177
SHANNON: I think in the real world
657
00:30:12,177 --> 00:30:14,413
there is no competition between
658
00:30:14,413 --> 00:30:17,182
private schools and public schools, because
659
00:30:17,182 --> 00:30:20,185
private schools, especially parochial schools,
660
00:30:20,185 --> 00:30:22,821
do not have to comply with federal and state
661
00:30:22,821 --> 00:30:25,858
mandates and constitutional limitations
662
00:30:26,191 --> 00:30:27,459
and things of that sort.
663
00:30:27,459 --> 00:30:28,360
McKENZIE: Dr. Anrig.
664
00:30:29,027 --> 00:30:29,861
GREGORY ANRIG: I think the part
665
00:30:29,861 --> 00:30:31,730
of the film that speaks to the greater
666
00:30:31,073 --> 00:30:32,341
parental involvement, I agree with
667
00:30:32,998 --> 00:30:34,966
very enthusiastically. However, I think
668
00:30:34,966 --> 00:30:36,601
the solution is the wrong solution for
669
00:30:36,601 --> 00:30:38,003
the problem that you identify.
670
00:30:38,437 --> 00:30:40,872
I think the role of public education
671
00:30:40,872 --> 00:30:43,008
in a democracy is not akin to that
672
00:30:43,008 --> 00:30:45,577
of the marketplace. The purpose for the
673
00:30:45,577 --> 00:30:47,713
common school is not the same as
674
00:30:47,713 --> 00:30:49,214
the purpose for the marketplace.
675
00:30:49,815 --> 00:30:51,416
We are trying in our public schools
676
00:30:51,416 --> 00:30:52,684
to create a democracy,
677
00:30:52,884 --> 00:30:54,853
to create an educated electorate.
678
00:30:55,287 --> 00:30:56,888
If you're going to do that, you have
679
00:30:56,888 --> 00:30:58,356
to have the common school.
680
00:30:58,824 --> 00:30:58,831
How far do you accept
681
00:30:59,524 --> 00:31:01,226
his analysis of the present
682
00:31:01,226 --> 00:31:03,662
condition of the public education system?
683
00:31:03,662 --> 00:31:04,863
A pretty drastic analysis.
684
00:31:05,097 --> 00:31:06,598
Well, I think he's established three
685
00:31:06,598 --> 00:31:07,733
straw men that I think have to
686
00:31:07,733 --> 00:31:09,000
be challenged, with all respect,
687
00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:10,769
Professor Friedman. The first is that
688
00:31:10,769 --> 00:31:12,170
there is a profession of educators
689
00:31:12,017 --> 00:31:13,285
out there which has run amuck.
690
00:31:14,072 --> 00:31:16,108
We have the most decentralized system
691
00:31:16,108 --> 00:31:18,410
in the world in the American education.
692
00:31:18,041 --> 00:31:20,810
Sixteen thousand school districts that
693
00:31:21,179 --> 00:31:22,848
are governed not by the profession,
694
00:31:22,848 --> 00:31:24,916
but by elected citizen representatives,
695
00:31:25,015 --> 00:31:25,983
most of whom are parents.
696
00:31:26,818 --> 00:31:28,687
Secondly, you long, as I would,
697
00:31:28,687 --> 00:31:30,188
for the good old days of
698
00:31:30,188 --> 00:31:31,490
the one-room school in Vermont.
699
00:31:32,019 --> 00:31:34,055
That school served a small proportion of
700
00:31:34,226 --> 00:31:35,527
the youngsters for a short period
701
00:31:35,527 --> 00:31:37,562
of time, and those days will never
702
00:31:37,562 --> 00:31:40,065
come back. Third, you use as an example
703
00:31:40,065 --> 00:31:42,200
of American education, a troubled
704
00:31:42,002 --> 00:31:43,571
high school in an urban center.
705
00:31:44,136 --> 00:31:45,504
McKENZIE: In your bailiwick.
706
00:31:45,804 --> 00:31:46,371
In my bailiwick,
707
00:31:46,371 --> 00:31:47,572
which is not typical of where
708
00:31:47,572 --> 00:31:49,207
the American student goes to school,
709
00:31:49,207 --> 00:31:51,543
first of all; and secondly is not typical of
710
00:31:51,543 --> 00:31:53,545
the City of Boston. And I do think
711
00:31:53,545 --> 00:31:54,746
it's important to point out that
712
00:31:54,746 --> 00:31:56,548
that particular school, at the time that
713
00:31:56,548 --> 00:31:57,949
you took filming there, or your
714
00:31:57,949 --> 00:31:59,551
production crew did, was in the
715
00:31:59,551 --> 00:32:01,520
middle of a desegregation process
716
00:32:01,052 --> 00:32:02,720
that was not anywhere remarked
717
00:32:03,188 --> 00:32:05,357
about in the film. So it was not a
718
00:32:05,357 --> 00:32:07,626
typical example, either of education in
719
00:32:07,626 --> 00:32:09,861
America, or of education in Boston.
720
00:32:10,495 --> 00:32:11,997
The one unsurprising thing about these
721
00:32:11,997 --> 00:32:14,966
comments is that all of the opposition
722
00:32:15,567 --> 00:32:16,768
to allowing the market to work
723
00:32:17,335 --> 00:32:18,904
comes from people who have a
724
00:32:18,904 --> 00:32:20,572
very strong vested interest in the
725
00:32:20,572 --> 00:32:22,441
present public school system.
726
00:32:22,974 --> 00:32:25,110
I am not proposing, we are not proposing
727
00:32:25,011 --> 00:32:27,146
to destroy the public school system.
728
00:32:27,512 --> 00:32:29,581
We are only asking that the public
729
00:32:29,581 --> 00:32:32,117
school system should be free to compete,
730
00:32:32,818 --> 00:32:34,152
should be open to competition.
731
00:32:34,753 --> 00:32:36,555
If it is really as good as you people
732
00:32:36,555 --> 00:32:37,322
make it out to be,
733
00:32:37,322 --> 00:32:38,690
it has nothing to worry about.
734
00:32:39,191 --> 00:32:40,992
Now, in terms of your comment,
735
00:32:41,927 --> 00:32:42,761
of course there's a great deal of
736
00:32:42,761 --> 00:32:45,297
decentralization. We showed a very good
737
00:32:45,297 --> 00:32:47,199
school in this film as well as
738
00:32:47,199 --> 00:32:48,800
a very bad school. There are many
739
00:32:48,008 --> 00:32:50,544
good schools. And the more decentralized
740
00:32:51,336 --> 00:32:53,705
the control, in my opinion, the more
741
00:32:53,705 --> 00:32:54,906
satisfactory is the schooling.
742
00:32:55,044 --> 00:32:57,613
The real problem is concentrated in
743
00:32:58,009 --> 00:33:00,011
those areas where decentralization
744
00:33:00,011 --> 00:33:01,379
is broken down, where you have
745
00:33:01,379 --> 00:33:03,715
moved to much greater centralization,
746
00:33:03,715 --> 00:33:06,251
much greater control. And the main
747
00:33:06,251 --> 00:33:07,886
trouble areas are in the large cities.
748
00:33:07,886 --> 00:33:09,788
That's why we picked that school to show.
749
00:33:10,522 --> 00:33:11,857
In response to the question of the
750
00:33:11,857 --> 00:33:13,425
excellence of the schooling that's
751
00:33:13,425 --> 00:33:16,728
coming, I think there is nobody
752
00:33:16,728 --> 00:33:18,964
who can question the declining
753
00:33:18,964 --> 00:33:20,999
SAT scores, the declining scores
754
00:33:20,999 --> 00:33:23,001
on exams, the declining performance
755
00:33:23,001 --> 00:33:25,036
in the schools, the fact that there is
756
00:33:25,036 --> 00:33:27,439
widespread dissatisfaction, that many
757
00:33:27,439 --> 00:33:29,107
schools, not all schools, some schools,
758
00:33:29,107 --> 00:33:32,644
in urban areas are more accurately
759
00:33:32,644 --> 00:33:35,680
described as centers to keep people off
760
00:33:35,068 --> 00:33:37,337
the street than as educational institutions.
761
00:33:38,483 --> 00:33:39,784
SHANKER: When you have a free market,
762
00:33:39,784 --> 00:33:42,087
there are dangers that go along
763
00:33:42,087 --> 00:33:43,989
with that market. Now, we know
764
00:33:43,989 --> 00:33:46,524
that there are people in our society
765
00:33:46,524 --> 00:33:48,561
who buy Consumer's Reports, and
766
00:33:48,894 --> 00:33:49,828
and there are people who do a
767
00:33:49,828 --> 00:33:51,329
great deal of research before they
768
00:33:51,329 --> 00:33:52,631
buy something, and there are other
769
00:33:52,631 --> 00:33:54,666
people who are taken in by the crass
770
00:33:54,666 --> 00:33:56,835
commercials and instant appeal to give
771
00:33:56,835 --> 00:33:58,503
them some sort of a gimmick
772
00:33:58,503 --> 00:34:00,005
with a thing. And I think that
773
00:34:00,005 --> 00:34:01,773
the evidence is pretty clear that
774
00:34:01,773 --> 00:34:02,974
if you take middle class and
775
00:34:02,974 --> 00:34:04,175
wealthier families, they are gonna do
776
00:34:04,175 --> 00:34:05,410
a good deal of research. They may
777
00:34:05,041 --> 00:34:06,409
very well be able to invest some
778
00:34:06,778 --> 00:34:08,079
additional money of their own
779
00:34:08,079 --> 00:34:09,581
to take some inconvenience.
780
00:34:09,915 --> 00:34:11,116
And if you have an open system of
781
00:34:11,116 --> 00:34:12,617
this sort it may very well be that
782
00:34:12,617 --> 00:34:14,252
the poorest parents are gonna have to
783
00:34:14,252 --> 00:34:16,021
take what is most convenient for
784
00:34:16,021 --> 00:34:17,222
them, what is going to fit in with
785
00:34:17,222 --> 00:34:19,057
their own work schedules, what is not
786
00:34:19,057 --> 00:34:21,593
going to require additional sums of money.
787
00:34:21,826 --> 00:34:23,695
And there is no doubt in mind that
788
00:34:23,695 --> 00:34:25,897
if you set up a system of free choice
789
00:34:25,897 --> 00:34:27,399
of this sort, you're going to with the
790
00:34:27,399 --> 00:34:29,334
poor in one set of schools of their
791
00:34:29,334 --> 00:34:31,636
own on the basis of a good deal of
792
00:34:31,636 --> 00:34:32,938
gimmicks that will be offered to them.
793
00:34:32,938 --> 00:34:34,306
COONS: They can't learn, right? They're –
794
00:34:34,306 --> 00:34:35,273
FRIEDMAN: Excuse me, Mr. Shanker.
795
00:34:35,273 --> 00:34:36,441
I want to ask you one question:
796
00:34:36,441 --> 00:34:38,376
How do you explain the fact that there is
797
00:34:38,376 --> 00:34:40,712
no area of the free market, no area of the
798
00:34:40,712 --> 00:34:43,114
private market, in which the poor people
799
00:34:43,114 --> 00:34:45,817
who live in the ghettos of our major cities
800
00:34:45,817 --> 00:34:48,753
are as disadvantaged as they are with
801
00:34:48,753 --> 00:34:50,622
respect to the kind of schooling they can get?
802
00:34:50,889 --> 00:34:53,658
I want you to name me any aspect of the
803
00:34:53,658 --> 00:34:55,760
private market- they’re not as disadvantaged
804
00:34:55,076 --> 00:34:56,845
in the kind of supermarkets they can go to.
805
00:34:57,529 --> 00:34:59,197
They're not as disadvantaged even in the
806
00:34:59,197 --> 00:35:00,632
kind of housing they can occupy,
807
00:35:00,632 --> 00:35:02,534
as they are in respect of the kind of
808
00:35:02,534 --> 00:35:04,135
schooling their children can go to.
809
00:35:04,135 --> 00:35:05,503
How does –
SHANKER: What's your evidence for that?
810
00:35:05,503 --> 00:35:06,638
I don't think you have any evidence for that.
811
00:35:06,638 --> 00:35:08,206
COONS: But, they're trying to get out.
812
00:35:08,206 --> 00:35:09,507
FRIEDMAN: They're trying desperately
813
00:35:09,507 --> 00:35:10,342
to get out.
814
00:35:10,342 --> 00:35:13,278
Families with very low incomes are
815
00:35:13,278 --> 00:35:14,779
trying to get into the parochial
816
00:35:14,779 --> 00:35:16,414
schools that you're talking about.
SHANKER: Exactly.
817
00:35:16,414 --> 00:35:18,450
And they're trying to get out of the slums,
818
00:35:18,045 --> 00:35:18,779
and they're trying to
819
00:35:19,184 --> 00:35:20,485
get into different neighborhoods –
820
00:35:20,485 --> 00:35:21,886
FRIEDMAN: They are trying to, sure.
821
00:35:21,886 --> 00:35:22,821
FRIEDMAN: They're doing better on that.
822
00:35:22,821 --> 00:35:24,356
They're doing better on that.
823
00:35:24,356 --> 00:35:27,058
And instead, in a free choice system you
824
00:35:27,058 --> 00:35:29,194
would have more heterogeneous schools in
825
00:35:29,194 --> 00:35:32,897
my opinion, far less segregation by social
826
00:35:32,897 --> 00:35:34,899
and economic class than you now have.
827
00:35:34,899 --> 00:35:35,867
Because –
828
00:35:35,867 --> 00:35:36,935
(Several talking at once.)
829
00:35:36,935 --> 00:35:37,769
McKENZIE: Dr. Anrig.
830
00:35:37,769 --> 00:35:40,071
ANRIG: It just doesn't hold up by the
831
00:35:40,071 --> 00:35:41,039
very examples he's used.
832
00:35:41,039 --> 00:35:41,473
FRIEDMAN: Excuse me.
833
00:35:41,473 --> 00:35:43,908
It so happens that right now, the parochial
834
00:35:43,908 --> 00:35:46,111
schools are the only alternative really
835
00:35:46,111 --> 00:35:48,313
available to low-income people.
836
00:35:48,313 --> 00:35:49,314
SHANKER: Do they take all the children
837
00:35:49,314 --> 00:35:50,281
who want to get in?
838
00:35:50,281 --> 00:35:51,082
FRIEDMAN: And the reason for that is
839
00:35:51,082 --> 00:35:54,319
that it's very hard to sell something
840
00:35:54,319 --> 00:35:56,621
when other people are giving it away.
841
00:35:56,621 --> 00:35:59,324
Anybody who wants to send his child to a
842
00:35:59,324 --> 00:36:02,027
non-public school has to pay twice for it,
843
00:36:02,027 --> 00:36:03,628
once in the form of taxes and
844
00:36:03,628 --> 00:36:04,896
once in the form of tuition.
845
00:36:04,896 --> 00:36:07,032
Under the kind of voucher scheme that
846
00:36:07,032 --> 00:36:08,667
Jack Coons and I would support,
847
00:36:08,667 --> 00:36:11,169
that difficulty would be eliminated.
848
00:36:11,169 --> 00:36:13,872
You would now have a situation in which the
849
00:36:13,872 --> 00:36:15,974
low-income people would have the kind of
850
00:36:15,974 --> 00:36:18,943
bargaining power, the kind of possibility of
851
00:36:18,943 --> 00:36:21,146
choice, that those of us who are in the
852
00:36:21,146 --> 00:36:23,381
upper-income groups have had all along.
853
00:36:23,381 --> 00:36:24,315
(Several talking at once.)
854
00:36:24,315 --> 00:36:25,250
McKENZIE: I want to move -- Jack Coons.
855
00:36:25,025 --> 00:36:26,660
Jack Coons, I want you to come in now.
856
00:36:26,885 --> 00:36:28,953
I know you're in principle advocating
857
00:36:28,953 --> 00:36:30,155
the voucher system.
858
00:36:30,155 --> 00:36:31,790
Could you give us the case as you see it?
859
00:36:31,079 --> 00:36:32,280
I know you've got your differences with
860
00:36:32,991 --> 00:36:34,592
Milton on it, but let's have the case.
861
00:36:34,592 --> 00:36:36,494
COONS: What we are doing in California
862
00:36:36,494 --> 00:36:39,931
is establishing a form of change,
863
00:36:39,931 --> 00:36:41,900
possible change, proposing a change,
864
00:36:41,009 --> 00:36:43,511
in which lower-income people will get
865
00:36:44,402 --> 00:36:46,489
information along with the opportunity to go
866
00:36:47,272 --> 00:36:48,473
to any school of their choice,
867
00:36:48,473 --> 00:36:49,908
and transportation to get there.
868
00:36:49,908 --> 00:36:51,109
Of course they need information.
869
00:36:51,109 --> 00:36:52,710
Anybody needs information in a market.
870
00:36:52,071 --> 00:36:54,374
And they need information from independent
871
00:36:55,013 --> 00:36:56,748
sources, not from the schools themselves.
872
00:36:56,748 --> 00:36:58,416
And that's the way the initiative is designed,
873
00:36:58,416 --> 00:37:00,118
to come from independent sources.
874
00:37:00,118 --> 00:37:02,787
Now, we believe that ordinary people can
875
00:37:02,787 --> 00:37:05,090
make the best judgments for their children
876
00:37:05,009 --> 00:37:06,510
about where they should go, if they're
877
00:37:06,591 --> 00:37:07,959
given good professional advice.
878
00:37:07,959 --> 00:37:09,894
And it also helps teachers because they can,
879
00:37:09,894 --> 00:37:11,563
for the first time, be professionals.
880
00:37:11,563 --> 00:37:14,199
They can act like real professionals,
881
00:37:14,199 --> 00:37:15,834
because they don't have a captive audience.
882
00:37:15,834 --> 00:37:17,869
They don't dominate their client, they
883
00:37:17,869 --> 00:37:19,637
respect their client, and they deal with them
884
00:37:19,637 --> 00:37:21,005
on the basis of contract.
885
00:37:21,005 --> 00:37:22,574
What could be better for teachers than,
886
00:37:22,574 --> 00:37:24,876
for the first time, to become people who are
887
00:37:24,876 --> 00:37:27,893
dealing in a democratic and respectful way
888
00:37:28,046 --> 00:37:30,448
with clientele instead of with captives?
889
00:37:30,882 --> 00:37:33,418
SHANNON: I am concerned that voucher
890
00:37:33,418 --> 00:37:37,856
systems will lead towards havens for white
891
00:37:37,856 --> 00:37:40,892
flight, will lead towards a dual school
892
00:37:40,892 --> 00:37:42,861
system, in the sense that you have one
893
00:37:42,861 --> 00:37:44,696
school system operating under one set of
894
00:37:44,696 --> 00:37:47,065
rules, the other school system, public school
895
00:37:47,065 --> 00:37:49,768
system, operating under carefully articulated
896
00:37:49,768 --> 00:37:53,104
educational policy in any given state.
897
00:37:53,104 --> 00:37:54,472
And that's why I think it's -
898
00:37:54,472 --> 00:37:55,306
COONS: Exactly, in Los Angeles County
899
00:37:55,306 --> 00:37:57,242
the movement to private schools
900
00:37:57,242 --> 00:38:00,269
last year was less, a smaller percentage,
901
00:38:00,512 --> 00:38:02,480
than in the statewide pattern.
902
00:38:02,048 --> 00:38:03,216
SHANKER: You may have five or
903
00:38:03,648 --> 00:38:04,949
ten percent of the students -
904
00:38:04,949 --> 00:38:06,618
FRIEDMAN: Right, right.
SHANKER: - you have very severe problems,
905
00:38:06,618 --> 00:38:08,853
and come from families with very severe
906
00:38:08,853 --> 00:38:11,456
problems, and those students take up
907
00:38:11,456 --> 00:38:13,725
95 percent of the time of the teachers
908
00:38:13,725 --> 00:38:15,126
and the administrators and the other
909
00:38:15,126 --> 00:38:17,095
children aren't getting an education.
910
00:38:17,095 --> 00:38:17,929
Now, you're gonna set up
911
00:38:17,929 --> 00:38:19,030
your voucher school.
912
00:38:19,003 --> 00:38:20,204
Are your voucher schools going
913
00:38:20,231 --> 00:38:21,299
to accept these tough children?
914
00:38:21,299 --> 00:38:22,167
COONS: You bet they are.
915
00:38:22,167 --> 00:38:23,168
(Several talking at once.)
916
00:38:23,168 --> 00:38:25,570
COONS: May I answer the question?
917
00:38:25,057 --> 00:38:27,826
SHANKER: If they accept those children,
918
00:38:28,339 --> 00:38:29,541
I'll tell you what's gonna happen.
919
00:38:29,541 --> 00:38:30,208
COONS: Okay, you tell me and
920
00:38:30,208 --> 00:38:31,109
then I'll tell you.
SHANKER: What's gonna happen
921
00:38:31,109 --> 00:38:33,077
is that the parents of all the other children
922
00:38:33,077 --> 00:38:34,546
are gonna move right out and go to another
923
00:38:34,546 --> 00:38:36,614
school, because ultimately you're going to
924
00:38:36,614 --> 00:38:38,671
have to deal with hardcore problems--
925
00:38:39,184 --> 00:38:39,817
McKENZIE: Okay, John Coons.
926
00:38:39,817 --> 00:38:41,052
SHANKER: -- whether it's in a private school
927
00:38:41,052 --> 00:38:42,320
or whether it's in a public school.
928
00:38:42,032 --> 00:38:42,766
COONS: In other words,
929
00:38:43,054 --> 00:38:45,390
that kid isn't tough in the school that
930
00:38:45,039 --> 00:38:46,574
he's in because he's stuck there;
931
00:38:46,925 --> 00:38:49,160
he's just a rotten, tough kid.
932
00:38:49,016 --> 00:38:49,950
SHANKER: He may be a kid with
933
00:38:50,094 --> 00:38:51,296
a lot of problems, not rotten,
934
00:38:51,296 --> 00:38:53,031
a kid with a lot of problems.
COONS: And it will never --
935
00:38:53,031 --> 00:38:54,532
you can't imagine a situation where if he
936
00:38:54,532 --> 00:38:56,401
were given choice, and allowed to go to a
937
00:38:56,401 --> 00:38:59,637
school that he liked, and to which he would
938
00:38:59,637 --> 00:39:01,706
connect emotionally, that he would no
939
00:39:01,706 --> 00:39:04,175
longer be a troublemaker, but that he would
940
00:39:04,175 --> 00:39:06,477
like to stay in a place where he has chosen
941
00:39:06,477 --> 00:39:08,564
and would, therefore, do what is necessary
942
00:39:09,347 --> 00:39:10,682
to stay there and to learn.
943
00:39:10,682 --> 00:39:11,516
SHANKER: You know, I don't think
944
00:39:11,516 --> 00:39:12,984
you've been near schools or classrooms
945
00:39:12,984 --> 00:39:14,185
for a heck of a long time.
COONS: Thanks a lot.
946
00:39:14,185 --> 00:39:16,120
(Laughter and applause.)
947
00:39:16,012 --> 00:39:17,781
COONS: I happen to have five kids
948
00:39:17,889 --> 00:39:19,791
who've done a lot of time in public
949
00:39:19,791 --> 00:39:21,125
and private schools both.
950
00:39:21,125 --> 00:39:23,228
SHANKER: We're not talking about the
951
00:39:23,228 --> 00:39:24,896
problems of your children, though.
952
00:39:24,896 --> 00:39:26,097
McKENZIE: Let's get around the table,
953
00:39:26,097 --> 00:39:26,865
I want to -
954
00:39:26,865 --> 00:39:27,932
FRIEDMAN: No, no. I have to get to this
955
00:39:27,932 --> 00:39:29,534
point, because I think it's a very crucial one.
956
00:39:29,534 --> 00:39:31,669
I don't think Mr. Shanker is saying that you
957
00:39:31,669 --> 00:39:35,006
should never use a doctor, if you have
958
00:39:35,006 --> 00:39:36,941
cancer, who hasn't himself had cancer.
959
00:39:36,941 --> 00:39:38,309
SHANKER Oh, I didn't say that.
960
00:39:38,309 --> 00:39:39,510
FRIEDMAN: Let's get rid of the idea that the
961
00:39:39,051 --> 00:39:40,553
only people who are competent to judge
962
00:39:41,012 --> 00:39:42,780
about whether a school is good or bad is a
963
00:39:42,078 --> 00:39:43,346
parent who at the moment has
964
00:39:44,048 --> 00:39:45,250
children in that school.
965
00:39:45,025 --> 00:39:47,494
The plain fact is that children
966
00:39:47,719 --> 00:39:49,387
are not born troublemakers.
967
00:39:49,387 --> 00:39:51,623
They do not emerge from the womb -some of
968
00:39:51,623 --> 00:39:53,691
them do, of course, but most of them do not.
969
00:39:53,691 --> 00:39:55,727
Most of the cases of the tough kids in the
970
00:39:55,727 --> 00:39:58,229
schools you're talking about are tough kids
971
00:39:58,229 --> 00:39:59,664
because they're lousy schools.
972
00:39:59,664 --> 00:40:00,698
Because the schools do not
973
00:40:00,698 --> 00:40:01,599
evoke their interest.
974
00:40:01,599 --> 00:40:02,734
Because the school does not -
975
00:40:02,734 --> 00:40:04,702
SHANKER: You're dead wrong. You're dead -
976
00:40:04,702 --> 00:40:05,536
(Several talking at once.)
977
00:40:05,536 --> 00:40:06,337
McKENZIE: Now wait a minute now,
978
00:40:06,337 --> 00:40:08,306
Greg Anrig on this one. Milton, let -
979
00:40:08,306 --> 00:40:10,208
ANRIG: It's not often I have a chance to
980
00:40:10,208 --> 00:40:11,409
tell a professor he's wrong.
981
00:40:11,409 --> 00:40:15,113
With all respect, Professor, the problems that
982
00:40:15,113 --> 00:40:17,649
you see in the urban schools of this country
983
00:40:17,649 --> 00:40:19,584
are not problems of the schools,
984
00:40:19,584 --> 00:40:21,119
they are problems of poverty.
985
00:40:21,119 --> 00:40:22,987
And they are problems of what do you do
986
00:40:22,987 --> 00:40:25,490
when, for demographic and sociological and
987
00:40:25,049 --> 00:40:26,884
economic reasons, in a country like ours,
988
00:40:27,325 --> 00:40:29,422
you begin to concentrate those people
989
00:40:30,295 --> 00:40:33,097
who are poor in the inner and older
990
00:40:33,097 --> 00:40:35,199
parts of the cities of our country.
991
00:40:35,199 --> 00:40:36,601
That's when the problem comes,
992
00:40:36,601 --> 00:40:38,169
and it's not just a problem with schools.
993
00:40:38,169 --> 00:40:40,271
It's a problem of housing, of jobs,
994
00:40:40,271 --> 00:40:42,073
of medical care, of social services,
995
00:40:42,073 --> 00:40:44,942
and the same problems crop up, and to say
996
00:40:44,942 --> 00:40:46,844
that the answer to that is take one part
997
00:40:46,844 --> 00:40:48,246
of that element and say,
998
00:40:48,246 --> 00:40:50,081
“Just set up a competitive marketplace,”
999
00:40:50,081 --> 00:40:51,482
is not dealing with the problem.
1000
00:40:51,482 --> 00:40:53,151
The problem is the problem of poverty.
1001
00:40:53,151 --> 00:40:54,719
FRIEDMAN: We've dealt with the problem –
1002
00:40:54,719 --> 00:40:57,121
THOMAS SHANNON: I am struck with the
1003
00:40:57,121 --> 00:41:00,692
anomaly, the anomaly that rises out of this
1004
00:41:00,692 --> 00:41:02,727
discussion of the voucher system.
1005
00:41:02,727 --> 00:41:04,562
The facts are that government support
1006
00:41:04,562 --> 00:41:07,398
call it subventions, call it direct aid,
1007
00:41:07,398 --> 00:41:09,367
call it grants in aid, call it vouchers,
1008
00:41:09,367 --> 00:41:12,036
call it anything, will lead ultimately to
1009
00:41:12,036 --> 00:41:14,372
government control of the private schools,
1010
00:41:14,372 --> 00:41:17,408
thus undercutting the alternative nature
1011
00:41:17,408 --> 00:41:19,877
of private schooling, and hurting it
1012
00:41:19,877 --> 00:41:21,212
at its very source.
1013
00:41:21,212 --> 00:41:22,013
COONS: Well, then you ought
1014
00:41:22,013 --> 00:41:23,114
to look at our initiative.
1015
00:41:23,114 --> 00:41:24,082
FRIEDMAN: We've had long experience with
1016
00:41:24,082 --> 00:41:25,483
that on the higher education level.
1017
00:41:25,483 --> 00:41:26,584
You have the whole GI Bill.
1018
00:41:26,584 --> 00:41:29,153
Did the GI Bill really lead, fundamentally,
1019
00:41:29,153 --> 00:41:31,255
to control of all the schools?
1020
00:41:31,255 --> 00:41:33,124
There's a fundamental difference between
1021
00:41:33,124 --> 00:41:34,826
government giving money to an institution,
1022
00:41:34,826 --> 00:41:38,663
to a school, that does lead to control directly,
1023
00:41:38,663 --> 00:41:42,867
and government giving money to people to
1024
00:41:42,867 --> 00:41:45,236
use, the food stamps don't determine what
1025
00:41:45,236 --> 00:41:46,571
people buy with their food stamps.
1026
00:41:46,571 --> 00:41:48,139
They may be a good or a bad program,
1027
00:41:48,139 --> 00:41:49,140
that's not my point.
1028
00:41:49,014 --> 00:41:51,350
My point is that don't underestimate the
1029
00:41:51,476 --> 00:41:54,212
crucial difference between making money
1030
00:41:54,212 --> 00:41:56,748
available to parents to spend as they choose
1031
00:41:56,748 --> 00:41:59,150
to exercise their judgment, and making
1032
00:41:59,015 --> 00:42:02,051
money available to institutions like schools,
1033
00:42:02,186 --> 00:42:05,213
which they spend, subject to all the
1034
00:42:05,456 --> 00:42:06,724
conflicts which they have with
1035
00:42:06,724 --> 00:42:07,959
schoolteachers and others.
1036
00:42:08,192 --> 00:42:09,527
ANRIG: You use Dartmouth as an example,
1037
00:42:09,527 --> 00:42:11,662
and I think the concerns that I have about
1038
00:42:11,662 --> 00:42:15,333
the voucher systems, the various ones
1039
00:42:15,333 --> 00:42:17,368
proposed, is not with the one applicant that
1040
00:42:17,368 --> 00:42:19,504
can get accepted to Dartmouth, but with the
1041
00:42:19,504 --> 00:42:20,605
eight applicants that don't
1042
00:42:20,605 --> 00:42:22,206
get accepted to Dartmouth.
1043
00:42:22,206 --> 00:42:23,941
What's going to happen to those
1044
00:42:23,941 --> 00:42:25,309
or that group of youngsters?
1045
00:42:25,309 --> 00:42:26,878
You can have a situation in the free
1046
00:42:26,878 --> 00:42:28,312
marketplace where everybody takes the
1047
00:42:28,312 --> 00:42:30,348
cream, but what about the youngster
1048
00:42:30,348 --> 00:42:31,816
that doesn't measure up?
1049
00:42:31,816 --> 00:42:33,451
What about the youngster that's a risk?
1050
00:42:33,451 --> 00:42:34,886
It seems to me that some of the greatest
1051
00:42:34,886 --> 00:42:37,655
leaders of this country were people that
1052
00:42:37,655 --> 00:42:39,190
would have been rejected by Dartmouth,
1053
00:42:39,019 --> 00:42:40,954
and most of the Ivy League schools.
1054
00:42:41,125 --> 00:42:42,693
McKENZIE: Let's get other views on this,
1055
00:42:42,693 --> 00:42:43,528
then we'll come back to you, Milton.
FRIEDMAN: No, no.
1056
00:42:43,528 --> 00:42:44,295
I just want to comment,
1057
00:42:44,295 --> 00:42:46,497
because I have to comment on two points,
1058
00:42:46,497 --> 00:42:47,532
the one he made earlier about
1059
00:42:47,532 --> 00:42:48,666
poverty and this one.
1060
00:42:48,666 --> 00:42:49,567
But on this one.
1061
00:42:49,567 --> 00:42:51,669
Dartmouth is one of the best examples
1062
00:42:51,669 --> 00:42:52,737
of the private schools.
1063
00:42:52,737 --> 00:42:54,772
UCLA is one of the best examples
1064
00:42:54,772 --> 00:42:56,307
of the state schools.
1065
00:42:56,307 --> 00:42:57,408
That's why we chose it.
1066
00:42:57,408 --> 00:42:59,977
There are many other private schools which
1067
00:42:59,977 --> 00:43:01,412
are not as selective and do not
1068
00:43:01,412 --> 00:43:03,815
-are available to people who
1069
00:43:03,815 --> 00:43:05,850
can't make the Dartmouth cut.
1070
00:43:05,085 --> 00:43:07,587
There are many other public schools,
1071
00:43:08,352 --> 00:43:11,389
state schools, that are less advanced than
1072
00:43:11,722 --> 00:43:13,825
UCLA and the California system.
1073
00:43:13,825 --> 00:43:15,793
There are all sorts of grades of schools.
1074
00:43:15,793 --> 00:43:17,695
But the difference between the
1075
00:43:17,695 --> 00:43:19,397
two is the same at lower levels.
1076
00:43:19,397 --> 00:43:21,232
Now I do want to make one comment going
1077
00:43:21,232 --> 00:43:23,935
back to your poverty thing; and that is that,
1078
00:43:23,935 --> 00:43:25,870
first of all, other programs in this series deal
1079
00:43:25,087 --> 00:43:26,822
with the issues you've raised.
1080
00:43:27,605 --> 00:43:31,576
But, second, do not underestimate the role
1081
00:43:31,576 --> 00:43:33,811
which bad schooling, provided by our
1082
00:43:33,811 --> 00:43:35,279
present governmental mechanism,
1083
00:43:35,279 --> 00:43:36,981
has played in creating poverty.
1084
00:43:36,981 --> 00:43:40,218
It's been a major source, particularly among
1085
00:43:40,218 --> 00:43:42,520
black and white teenagers coming up in the
1086
00:43:42,052 --> 00:43:44,087
slums, it's been a major source of their
1087
00:43:44,555 --> 00:43:46,657
difficulties of getting out of
1088
00:43:46,657 --> 00:43:47,959
the trap of poverty.
1089
00:43:47,959 --> 00:43:50,194
So it's not a one-way relation between
1090
00:43:50,194 --> 00:43:51,028
poverty and the schools,
1091
00:43:51,028 --> 00:43:53,231
the schools themselves bear a
1092
00:43:53,231 --> 00:43:54,899
great deal of responsibility.
1093
00:43:54,899 --> 00:43:55,833
SHANKER: Well, the reason the schools bear
1094
00:43:55,833 --> 00:43:57,702
it, and it isn't the schools directly, it's that
1095
00:43:57,702 --> 00:44:00,538
we don't put enough resources in for children
1096
00:44:00,538 --> 00:44:02,707
who need special and additional help
1097
00:44:02,707 --> 00:44:04,108
because they are not getting it in their
1098
00:44:04,108 --> 00:44:06,110
homes, or they're not getting the same sort
1099
00:44:06,011 --> 00:44:08,080
of support in home and community as middle
1100
00:44:08,179 --> 00:44:10,548
class kids do, and then we wait until the
1101
00:44:10,548 --> 00:44:12,483
child is 16 or 17 and drops out,
1102
00:44:12,483 --> 00:44:14,352
and then we provide a youth employment
1103
00:44:14,352 --> 00:44:16,120
program for them where we spend between
1104
00:44:16,012 --> 00:44:19,048
five and ten thousand dollars to try to undo
1105
00:44:19,156 --> 00:44:21,759
what could have been undone in the first,
1106
00:44:21,759 --> 00:44:23,427
second and third grade if we had a decent
1107
00:44:23,427 --> 00:44:24,996
investment in the public schools.
1108
00:44:24,996 --> 00:44:26,030
FRIEDMAN: I have never yet known anybody
1109
00:44:26,003 --> 00:44:27,705
who was trying to defend a government
1110
00:44:27,732 --> 00:44:29,867
program who didn't say all its evils came
1111
00:44:29,867 --> 00:44:31,202
from the fact that it wasn't big enough.
1112
00:44:31,202 --> 00:44:32,570
Now the facts are -
1113
00:44:32,057 --> 00:44:32,724
SHANKER: Would you think the children
1114
00:44:33,237 --> 00:44:34,605
with problems need the same
1115
00:44:34,605 --> 00:44:35,640
amount of education -
1116
00:44:35,064 --> 00:44:36,231
FRIEDMAN: No, no.
1117
00:44:36,807 --> 00:44:37,642
SHANKER: -- the same amount as children
1118
00:44:37,642 --> 00:44:38,509
who don't have special problems?
FRIEDMAN: No, but I just want to
1119
00:44:38,509 --> 00:44:39,710
tell you some facts.
1120
00:44:39,071 --> 00:44:40,806
The number of students in schools
1121
00:44:41,445 --> 00:44:42,380
has been going down.
1122
00:44:42,038 --> 00:44:46,642
The total expenditures on schools, allowance
1123
00:44:46,984 --> 00:44:49,787
being made for inflation, after allowing
1124
00:44:49,787 --> 00:44:51,255
for inflation, has been going up.
1125
00:44:51,255 --> 00:44:53,291
The number of pupils has been going down,
1126
00:44:53,291 --> 00:44:55,526
the number of teachers has been going up,
1127
00:44:55,526 --> 00:44:57,261
and by all accounts the quality
1128
00:44:57,261 --> 00:44:58,563
has been going down.
1129
00:44:58,563 --> 00:44:59,597
SHANKER: But I have to explain -
1130
00:44:59,597 --> 00:45:00,231
(Several talking at once)
1131
00:45:00,231 --> 00:45:02,733
McKENZIE: Milton, just a minute.
1132
00:45:02,733 --> 00:45:03,935
I want to hold you Mr. Shanker, Mr. Shanker.
1133
00:45:03,935 --> 00:45:05,803
We got onto higher education and I don't
1134
00:45:05,803 --> 00:45:07,104
want to leave it without getting the
1135
00:45:07,104 --> 00:45:08,439
rest of Milton's thoughts on it.
1136
00:45:08,439 --> 00:45:10,541
In particular, you seem to be coming to say
1137
00:45:10,541 --> 00:45:12,743
at the end of the film that the right answer
1138
00:45:12,743 --> 00:45:16,280
is a system of realistic loans where people,
1139
00:45:16,028 --> 00:45:18,264
therefore, know what it's costing, rather
1140
00:45:18,516 --> 00:45:21,185
than trying to hold down college fees
1141
00:45:21,185 --> 00:45:22,119
and that kind of thing.
1142
00:45:22,119 --> 00:45:22,887
FRIEDMAN: Absolutely.
1143
00:45:22,887 --> 00:45:23,254
McKENZIE: Yeah. And-
1144
00:45:23,254 --> 00:45:25,022
FRIEDMAN: I think that the higher education
1145
00:45:25,022 --> 00:45:26,857
is the most disgraceful example
1146
00:45:26,857 --> 00:45:27,692
on the record.
1147
00:45:27,692 --> 00:45:30,127
I know of no governmental program that
1148
00:45:30,127 --> 00:45:33,764
seem to me is so unfair and disgraceful in
1149
00:45:33,764 --> 00:45:36,400
imposing costs on low income people to
1150
00:45:36,004 --> 00:45:37,673
benefit high income people.
1151
00:45:38,069 --> 00:45:39,904
We in the upper and middle income classes
1152
00:45:39,904 --> 00:45:42,373
have conned the poor in this country to
1153
00:45:42,373 --> 00:45:44,008
supporting our children in going through
1154
00:45:44,008 --> 00:45:49,046
college and university and we don't -- and
1155
00:45:49,046 --> 00:45:50,848
we scream to the treetops about how
1156
00:45:50,848 --> 00:45:52,984
disinterested and how public-spirited we are.
1157
00:45:52,984 --> 00:45:54,385
We ought to have a system under
1158
00:45:54,385 --> 00:45:55,419
which everybody who wants to go
1159
00:45:55,419 --> 00:45:56,687
to college can go there.
1160
00:45:56,687 --> 00:45:58,956
He has to pay his own way, either now or
1161
00:45:58,956 --> 00:46:01,492
later on, and the schemes I have in mind, if
1162
00:46:01,492 --> 00:46:03,361
we developed them more fully,
1163
00:46:03,361 --> 00:46:05,396
and as I have in other contexts,
1164
00:46:05,396 --> 00:46:07,732
in other areas, are along the line of the
1165
00:46:07,732 --> 00:46:10,534
educational opportunity bank, that Professor
1166
00:46:10,534 --> 00:46:12,837
Zacharias of MIT and a commission
1167
00:46:12,837 --> 00:46:14,705
appointed by President Johnson came up
1168
00:46:14,705 --> 00:46:18,142
with as a way of enabling students to finance
1169
00:46:18,142 --> 00:46:21,045
their own higher education without facing
1170
00:46:21,045 --> 00:46:22,380
the problem you raised of ending
1171
00:46:22,038 --> 00:46:23,673
up with a large dollar debt.
ANRIG: I do think --
1172
00:46:24,015 --> 00:46:24,782
McKENZIE: Dr. Anrig.
1173
00:46:24,782 --> 00:46:27,018
ANRIG: With some trepidation, Professor,
1174
00:46:27,018 --> 00:46:28,152
I raise a question of taxation.
1175
00:46:28,152 --> 00:46:30,955
That is that I agree that we need better loan
1176
00:46:30,955 --> 00:46:33,824
systems than we have, but as I understand
1177
00:46:33,824 --> 00:46:35,693
the American tax system in general,
1178
00:46:35,693 --> 00:46:38,462
as a generality, it is a graduated system.
FRIEDMAN: Absolutely.
1179
00:46:38,462 --> 00:46:40,164
ANRIG: It is an equalizing system.
FRIEDMAN: Absolutely.
1180
00:46:40,164 --> 00:46:41,999
ANRIG: And to reach the conclusion that the
1181
00:46:41,999 --> 00:46:43,501
FRIEDMAN: No, no, it is not. It's on paper,
1182
00:46:43,501 --> 00:46:44,935
but you've got to look at the facts.
1183
00:46:44,935 --> 00:46:45,836
McKENZIE: Let him make his point, yes.
1184
00:46:45,836 --> 00:46:47,338
ANRIG: Well, I'm trying to -- it is a system
1185
00:46:47,338 --> 00:46:50,675
which the wealthier get -- or the middle
1186
00:46:50,675 --> 00:46:52,476
class get taxed more than somebody who's
1187
00:46:52,476 --> 00:46:53,744
making a lesser salary.
1188
00:46:53,744 --> 00:46:56,480
To say then that the poor are funding -
1189
00:46:56,048 --> 00:46:56,849
FRIEDMAN: That's true.
1190
00:46:57,281 --> 00:46:59,050
ANRIG: -- public higher educations, where
1191
00:46:59,005 --> 00:47:00,373
middle class youngsters, and by the way a
1192
00:47:00,418 --> 00:47:02,920
lot of poor youngsters go as well, it doesn't
1193
00:47:02,092 --> 00:47:03,560
fit with my understanding at least
1194
00:47:04,388 --> 00:47:05,256
of the tax system.
1195
00:47:05,256 --> 00:47:06,857
Now I'm not an economist, I admit it.
1196
00:47:06,857 --> 00:47:08,159
FRIEDMAN: Well, it turns out that there have
1197
00:47:08,159 --> 00:47:10,094
been some very careful studies made of
1198
00:47:10,094 --> 00:47:11,329
exactly what you're describing.
1199
00:47:11,329 --> 00:47:12,530
There's one particularly careful
1200
00:47:12,053 --> 00:47:13,054
one for California.
1201
00:47:13,531 --> 00:47:15,332
There's one for Florida.
1202
00:47:15,332 --> 00:47:19,970
These show -- it's not a minor item,
1203
00:47:19,097 --> 00:47:22,000
that if you take the total receipts from
1204
00:47:22,873 --> 00:47:24,709
expenditures on higher education going to
1205
00:47:24,709 --> 00:47:26,777
the lower classes, and the total taxes they
1206
00:47:26,777 --> 00:47:29,046
pay that are used for higher education, the
1207
00:47:29,046 --> 00:47:31,133
lower classes are paying more than they're
1208
00:47:31,916 --> 00:47:34,151
getting, and the higher classes are getting
1209
00:47:34,151 --> 00:47:36,353
more than they are paying for.
1210
00:47:36,353 --> 00:47:36,854
(Several talking at once.)
1211
00:47:36,854 --> 00:47:37,955
FRIEDMAN: Now I myself am a
1212
00:47:37,955 --> 00:47:39,190
beneficiary of this subsidy.
1213
00:47:39,019 --> 00:47:41,922
I'm one of the worst cases on record.
1214
00:47:42,093 --> 00:47:44,495
I went to a state school, Rutgers University.
1215
00:47:44,495 --> 00:47:46,363
I went on a state scholarship.
1216
00:47:46,363 --> 00:47:48,866
The poor suckers in the State of New Jersey
1217
00:47:48,866 --> 00:47:50,568
paid for my going to college.
1218
00:47:50,568 --> 00:47:53,170
I personally think that was a good thing,
1219
00:47:53,017 --> 00:47:53,851
there are many people who have
1220
00:47:54,004 --> 00:47:55,306
different opinions about that.
1221
00:47:55,306 --> 00:47:56,340
(Laughing)
1222
00:47:56,034 --> 00:47:57,869
FRIEDMAN: But I personally think
1223
00:47:58,175 --> 00:47:59,110
it's a good thing.
1224
00:47:59,011 --> 00:48:00,545
But I don't see that any reason whatsoever
1225
00:48:00,644 --> 00:48:02,847
why I shouldn't have been required to pay
1226
00:48:02,847 --> 00:48:03,981
back that money.
1227
00:48:03,981 --> 00:48:06,250
Individuals pursuing their separate individual
1228
00:48:06,025 --> 00:48:08,594
interests also provide public benefits.
1229
00:48:08,819 --> 00:48:11,822
Of course I think that the public benefited
1230
00:48:11,822 --> 00:48:13,157
from my getting an education, but the
1231
00:48:13,157 --> 00:48:14,925
primary beneficiary was me.
1232
00:48:14,925 --> 00:48:17,161
I was the one who got the benefit from it.
1233
00:48:17,161 --> 00:48:18,629
I was the one who had the higher income.
1234
00:48:18,629 --> 00:48:19,997
COONS: We know you benefited from it.
1235
00:48:19,997 --> 00:48:20,765
FRIEDMAN: I know I benefited,
1236
00:48:20,765 --> 00:48:22,099
I don't know about the public.
1237
00:48:22,099 --> 00:48:23,634
McKENZIE: I'd like others of you to react to
1238
00:48:23,634 --> 00:48:26,203
the idea of moving from state education at
1239
00:48:26,203 --> 00:48:28,305
the higher level, which is based upon low
1240
00:48:28,305 --> 00:48:29,740
fees in state universities,
1241
00:48:29,074 --> 00:48:31,410
in favor of a loan system.
1242
00:48:32,076 --> 00:48:33,544
This has been hotly debated in many
1243
00:48:33,544 --> 00:48:34,779
other countries, too.
1244
00:48:34,779 --> 00:48:35,846
What's your own feeling about that?
1245
00:48:35,846 --> 00:48:38,482
COONS: Being a tenured professor at a state
1246
00:48:38,482 --> 00:48:40,684
university I suppose you've really put
1247
00:48:40,684 --> 00:48:41,485
me on the spot.
1248
00:48:41,485 --> 00:48:42,853
I hope none of my friends are listening.
1249
00:48:42,853 --> 00:48:45,189
But I tend to agree in general with Milton
1250
00:48:45,189 --> 00:48:48,192
Friedman that we ought to find a way to
1251
00:48:48,192 --> 00:48:50,761
open up to all classes, all income classes,
1252
00:48:50,761 --> 00:48:52,563
the kinds of opportunities that the middle
1253
00:48:52,563 --> 00:48:54,598
class have at my university.
1254
00:48:54,799 --> 00:48:57,134
And I cannot give you -- we don't have time
1255
00:48:57,134 --> 00:48:58,903
to go through all of the kinds of ways
1256
00:48:58,903 --> 00:49:00,604
which we would do it, but I would
1257
00:49:00,604 --> 00:49:02,373
just personally, it seems to me, we ought to
1258
00:49:02,373 --> 00:49:04,542
let people come free at the beginning
1259
00:49:04,542 --> 00:49:06,410
and pay it back out of their income over their
1260
00:49:06,041 --> 00:49:06,775
their life span.
1261
00:49:07,144 --> 00:49:08,913
So if they make a lot of money, they pay
1262
00:49:08,913 --> 00:49:09,914
back a lot of money.
1263
00:49:09,914 --> 00:49:11,782
Perhaps we can run the whole university
1264
00:49:11,782 --> 00:49:14,351
in the future on their success, to which we
1265
00:49:14,351 --> 00:49:15,753
contributed with our teaching.
1266
00:49:15,753 --> 00:49:17,321
And if they don't make any money,
1267
00:49:17,321 --> 00:49:18,422
they don't pay anything back,
1268
00:49:18,422 --> 00:49:19,990
and that's okay too.
1269
00:49:19,099 --> 00:49:20,801
FRIEDMAN: And you ought to share in the
1270
00:49:21,692 --> 00:49:22,693
losses if they don't.
1271
00:49:22,693 --> 00:49:23,961
COONS: Exactly.
1272
00:49:23,961 --> 00:49:25,496
I can't think of anything that would frighten
1273
00:49:25,496 --> 00:49:27,798
poor people more than the thought
1274
00:49:27,798 --> 00:49:30,734
at the end of the four years or six or seven
1275
00:49:30,734 --> 00:49:33,170
or eight years of higher education,
1276
00:49:33,017 --> 00:49:35,453
they have this albatross around their neck -
1277
00:49:35,606 --> 00:49:36,640
COONS: Only if they're rich.
1278
00:49:36,064 --> 00:49:37,766
Only if they become rich.
1279
00:49:38,342 --> 00:49:39,844
FRIEDMAN: There's no albatross --
1280
00:49:39,844 --> 00:49:41,645
would you say the same thing about people
1281
00:49:41,645 --> 00:49:42,746
who start businesses?
1282
00:49:42,746 --> 00:49:45,049
We’ve got millions of people who start
1283
00:49:45,049 --> 00:49:46,650
private businesses every year.
1284
00:49:46,065 --> 00:49:47,934
Many of them lose money.
1285
00:49:49,119 --> 00:49:50,387
Many of them make money.
1286
00:49:50,387 --> 00:49:52,434
Would you say that nobody is gonna start a
1287
00:49:52,857 --> 00:49:54,225
business because he might end up
1288
00:49:54,225 --> 00:49:55,593
with an albatross?
1289
00:49:55,593 --> 00:49:56,660
You ought to let people
1290
00:49:56,066 --> 00:49:57,434
decide that for themselves.
1291
00:49:58,028 --> 00:49:59,063
What I really want to know is a very
1292
00:49:59,063 --> 00:50:02,099
different thing. How do you justify taxing the
1293
00:50:02,099 --> 00:50:04,401
people in Watts to send the children from
1294
00:50:04,401 --> 00:50:05,603
Beverly Hills to college?
1295
00:50:05,603 --> 00:50:07,438
That's a demagogic statement, but it
1296
00:50:07,438 --> 00:50:09,940
happens to be empirically a correct
1297
00:50:09,094 --> 00:50:10,396
statement. How do you justify it?
1298
00:50:11,242 --> 00:50:12,810
SHANKER: Well I don't know how we justify
1299
00:50:12,081 --> 00:50:13,682
taxing all the people of this country
1300
00:50:14,411 --> 00:50:16,280
to send the GIs under the GI bill
1301
00:50:16,028 --> 00:50:17,563
but I'm very grateful that we did it.
1302
00:50:17,815 --> 00:50:19,216
I don't know what this country would have
1303
00:50:19,216 --> 00:50:22,052
done in a postwar period without a huge
1304
00:50:22,052 --> 00:50:24,388
number of educated people in a whole
1305
00:50:24,388 --> 00:50:26,156
bunch of fields that opened up after that.
1306
00:50:26,156 --> 00:50:27,925
I doubt very much that the GIs would have
1307
00:50:27,925 --> 00:50:29,460
come back at the age that they were
1308
00:50:29,046 --> 00:50:30,848
and everything else, and would have decided
1309
00:50:31,262 --> 00:50:32,930
that now they're gonna take out loans
1310
00:50:32,093 --> 00:50:32,794
SHANNON: And a lot of
1311
00:50:33,631 --> 00:50:34,164
them were poor.
1312
00:50:34,164 --> 00:50:34,832
in order to go to college.
1313
00:50:34,832 --> 00:50:36,033
SHANKER: Yes, they were poor, and they
1314
00:50:36,033 --> 00:50:37,902
went because they had government support
1315
00:50:37,902 --> 00:50:39,770
to go, and because basically there were
1316
00:50:39,077 --> 00:50:40,946
were a lot of state-supported low-tuition
1317
00:50:41,639 --> 00:50:43,507
schools, and if you didn't have the state
1318
00:50:43,507 --> 00:50:45,009
schools, and if you didn't have the
1319
00:50:45,009 --> 00:50:46,510
government support we wouldn't --
1320
00:50:46,051 --> 00:50:48,554
we would have been without those people,
1321
00:50:49,013 --> 00:50:50,180
and I don't know what would have happened
1322
00:50:50,018 --> 00:50:51,520
either to our strength or to our
1323
00:50:51,682 --> 00:50:52,816
economy without that.
1324
00:50:52,816 --> 00:50:54,285
FRIEDMAN: The history of this country goes
1325
00:50:54,285 --> 00:50:56,587
back a little bit before 1945.
1326
00:50:56,587 --> 00:50:58,589
It goes back 200 years.
1327
00:50:58,589 --> 00:51:02,893
The state schools, universities, were a minor
1328
00:51:02,893 --> 00:51:04,962
part of the total higher educational system
1329
00:51:04,962 --> 00:51:06,130
for a long time.
1330
00:51:06,013 --> 00:51:08,682
That educational system did generate a great
1331
00:51:08,799 --> 00:51:10,467
many educated and schooled people,
1332
00:51:10,467 --> 00:51:11,502
a great many people who made
1333
00:51:11,502 --> 00:51:13,270
great contributions to this country.
1334
00:51:13,027 --> 00:51:14,796
SHANKER: What percentage of people went
1335
00:51:15,039 --> 00:51:16,206
to college before World War II
1336
00:51:16,206 --> 00:51:17,374
in this country?
1337
00:51:17,374 --> 00:51:18,275
FRIEDMAN: The percentage that was going
1338
00:51:18,275 --> 00:51:19,843
to college was going up and rising.
1339
00:51:19,843 --> 00:51:22,680
You know -- let me tell you one -- another
1340
00:51:22,068 --> 00:51:23,736
statistic -- I hate to introduce statistics.
1341
00:51:24,348 --> 00:51:25,182
But let me tell you one more.
1342
00:51:25,182 --> 00:51:28,209
Do you know that the percentage of the
1343
00:51:28,452 --> 00:51:30,554
students at private universities who
1344
00:51:30,554 --> 00:51:33,357
come from low-income classes is higher than
1345
00:51:33,357 --> 00:51:36,160
the percentage of students at state
1346
00:51:36,016 --> 00:51:37,918
universities, at government universities,
1347
00:51:38,062 --> 00:51:39,229
that come from the lowest income families?
1348
00:51:39,229 --> 00:51:40,030
SHANKER: Because they are there with
1349
00:51:40,003 --> 00:51:40,804
government assistance.
1350
00:51:40,831 --> 00:51:41,832
FRIEDMAN: Most cases they are there with -
1351
00:51:41,832 --> 00:51:42,833
SHANKER: They are there with government
1352
00:51:42,833 --> 00:51:45,102
assistance, which in many cases favors
1353
00:51:45,102 --> 00:51:46,937
the private as against the public schools.
1354
00:51:46,937 --> 00:51:48,238
FRIEDMAN: In most cases they are there
1355
00:51:48,238 --> 00:51:49,707
with private scholarships that have
1356
00:51:49,707 --> 00:51:50,641
been contributed by people -
1357
00:51:50,641 --> 00:51:51,475
SHANKER: Some of them,
1358
00:51:51,475 --> 00:51:52,309
some of them, yes.
1359
00:51:52,309 --> 00:51:53,243
FRIEDMAN: -- which is all to the good.
1360
00:51:53,243 --> 00:51:54,144
McKENZIE: Dr. Anrig on this.
1361
00:51:54,144 --> 00:51:55,045
ANRIG: We come back to the point that I
1362
00:51:55,045 --> 00:51:56,347
tried to make earlier with Dartmouth.
1363
00:51:56,347 --> 00:51:57,748
The reason the public higher education
1364
00:51:57,748 --> 00:51:59,717
system developed, the reason that you
1365
00:51:59,717 --> 00:52:02,753
have the UCLAs and others, is not simply
1366
00:52:02,753 --> 00:52:04,722
that government went amuck or bureaucrats
1367
00:52:04,722 --> 00:52:07,291
went that way; but because eight of those
1368
00:52:07,291 --> 00:52:08,993
students were not getting into Dartmouth,
1369
00:52:08,993 --> 00:52:10,694
and there was not a place for them.
1370
00:52:10,694 --> 00:52:12,129
And it was public higher education that
1371
00:52:12,129 --> 00:52:13,797
opened up its doors to those students.
1372
00:52:13,797 --> 00:52:15,466
Those are the youngsters that now have an
1373
00:52:15,466 --> 00:52:17,134
opportunity they wouldn't have had before.
1374
00:52:17,134 --> 00:52:19,503
I think on the issue of loans that it's as with
1375
00:52:19,503 --> 00:52:21,071
all complex human tasks,
1376
00:52:21,071 --> 00:52:22,639
it's not an either/or situation.
1377
00:52:22,639 --> 00:52:24,241
You need a mix of strategies.
1378
00:52:24,241 --> 00:52:25,843
I think you need a mix of strategies on the
1379
00:52:25,843 --> 00:52:27,444
issue of alternatives for
1380
00:52:27,444 --> 00:52:28,779
youngsters in schools.
1381
00:52:28,779 --> 00:52:30,981
I think you can have, as indeed you do have
1382
00:52:30,981 --> 00:52:33,183
alternatives within public school systems.
1383
00:52:33,183 --> 00:52:34,985
I think you can have alternatives
1384
00:52:34,985 --> 00:52:36,086
within schools.
1385
00:52:36,086 --> 00:52:37,921
I think you can have competition through
1386
00:52:37,921 --> 00:52:39,757
open enrollment kinds of arrangements.
1387
00:52:39,757 --> 00:52:42,259
I am fearful, however, always, for those
1388
00:52:42,259 --> 00:52:44,294
eight youngsters than can't get in to
1389
00:52:44,294 --> 00:52:45,896
something which is basically selective
1390
00:52:45,896 --> 00:52:47,931
and exclusive. If you can assure us -
1391
00:52:47,931 --> 00:52:48,799
FRIEDMAN: Well, let's go back -
1392
00:52:48,799 --> 00:52:50,401
ANRIG: -- that those eight youngsters all will
1393
00:52:50,401 --> 00:52:52,236
be provided with equal attention,
1394
00:52:52,236 --> 00:52:54,571
equal opportunity and equal rights, then I
1395
00:52:54,571 --> 00:52:55,339
would begin to be more
1396
00:52:55,339 --> 00:52:56,440
interested in the alternative.
1397
00:52:56,044 --> 00:52:58,046
FRIEDMAN: But I want to suggest to you
1398
00:52:58,442 --> 00:53:00,878
that we're not proposing, neither Jack Coons
1399
00:53:00,878 --> 00:53:02,546
nor I, to dismantle anything.
1400
00:53:02,546 --> 00:53:04,314
We're only saying, put up or shut up.
1401
00:53:04,314 --> 00:53:06,283
Either show that you can produce the kind
1402
00:53:06,283 --> 00:53:09,019
of education people are willing to go and get,
1403
00:53:09,019 --> 00:53:12,623
or reduce your size, go out of business.
1404
00:53:12,623 --> 00:53:14,925
We are only proposing that there be a
1405
00:53:14,925 --> 00:53:16,326
wider range of alternatives.
1406
00:53:16,326 --> 00:53:21,031
Now, it is not true -- let me put a
1407
00:53:21,031 --> 00:53:22,266
different point to you.
1408
00:53:23,167 --> 00:53:25,202
There are a small minority of people
1409
00:53:25,202 --> 00:53:26,437
who are problems.
1410
00:53:26,804 --> 00:53:29,840
Is it desirable to impose a straightjacket on
1411
00:53:29,084 --> 00:53:30,686
a hundred percent of the people, or ninety
1412
00:53:31,442 --> 00:53:33,710
percent of the people, in order to provide
1413
00:53:33,071 --> 00:53:35,340
special assistance or special help to four
1414
00:53:35,979 --> 00:53:37,448
or five or ten percent of the people?
1415
00:53:37,448 --> 00:53:37,457
Not at all.
1416
00:53:38,749 --> 00:53:40,951
I think that there's a big difference between
1417
00:53:40,951 --> 00:53:42,686
two kinds of systems; one kind of system
1418
00:53:42,686 --> 00:53:45,222
in which the great bulk of parents have
1419
00:53:45,222 --> 00:53:47,124
have effective freedom to choose the kind
1420
00:53:47,124 --> 00:53:48,592
of schools their children go to, whether at
1421
00:53:48,592 --> 00:53:49,793
the lower or the higher level.
1422
00:53:49,793 --> 00:53:52,820
And there are programs and provisions for
1423
00:53:53,063 --> 00:53:55,165
a small minority. That's one kind of a system.
1424
00:53:55,165 --> 00:53:56,500
That isn't what we have now.
1425
00:53:56,005 --> 00:53:58,007
What people in the public school system,
1426
00:53:58,502 --> 00:54:00,471
people like yourselves do, they do not
1427
00:54:00,471 --> 00:54:02,339
want to give up the monopoly of the
1428
00:54:02,339 --> 00:54:03,741
public school system any more than
1429
00:54:03,741 --> 00:54:04,908
the Post Office wants to give up
1430
00:54:04,908 --> 00:54:06,977
the monopoly of delivering mail.
1431
00:54:08,145 --> 00:54:09,480
ANRIG: I think you attribute the
1432
00:54:09,048 --> 00:54:10,482
monopoly desire to the bureaucrat.
1433
00:54:11,615 --> 00:54:12,883
And I don't think that's right.
1434
00:54:12,883 --> 00:54:16,220
The concern of the public school is for being
1435
00:54:16,022 --> 00:54:17,690
sure that every youngster in this country
1436
00:54:17,888 --> 00:54:19,990
gets access to a public education.
1437
00:54:19,099 --> 00:54:21,435
FRIEDMAN: Excuse me. You have had an
1438
00:54:22,326 --> 00:54:24,528
attempt to introduce voucher experiments
1439
00:54:24,528 --> 00:54:26,663
around the country. Every one of those
1440
00:54:26,663 --> 00:54:29,466
attempts, as at Alum Rock and elsewhere,
1441
00:54:29,466 --> 00:54:32,503
has been prevented by the opposition
1442
00:54:32,503 --> 00:54:34,171
of the educational bureaucracy.
1443
00:54:34,171 --> 00:54:35,472
ANRIG: Oh, but, no, no, you can't --
1444
00:54:35,472 --> 00:54:36,774
that's a glittering generality.
1445
00:54:36,774 --> 00:54:38,108
FRIEDMAN: That was true in New Hampshire,
1446
00:54:38,108 --> 00:54:39,243
it was true in Connecticut.
1447
00:54:39,243 --> 00:54:40,544
SHANKER: It was not true in Alum Rock
1448
00:54:40,544 --> 00:54:43,013
because, Alum Rock was not what you might
1449
00:54:43,013 --> 00:54:45,482
call a voucher system’ it was a kind of a
1450
00:54:45,482 --> 00:54:47,951
system of free choice within public schools.
1451
00:54:47,951 --> 00:54:50,028
And whereas one school did better in its
1452
00:54:50,721 --> 00:54:52,556
scores, others did worse, and when you
1453
00:54:52,556 --> 00:54:54,024
measured the whole system when it was all
1454
00:54:54,024 --> 00:54:56,160
over, the scores were exactly the same as
1455
00:54:56,016 --> 00:54:57,951
before, except that some students had
1456
00:54:58,095 --> 00:54:59,763
moved to other schools and the grades were
1457
00:54:59,763 --> 00:55:01,865
better in one school as against another.
1458
00:55:01,865 --> 00:55:04,701
We do very strongly oppose a voucher
1459
00:55:04,701 --> 00:55:07,708
system, which will end up with public schools
1460
00:55:07,771 --> 00:55:10,908
being abandoned and thereby destroyed,
1461
00:55:10,908 --> 00:55:12,743
largely. They will become the schools for
1462
00:55:12,743 --> 00:55:14,077
those who can't get in anywhere else,
1463
00:55:14,077 --> 00:55:15,779
or who are expelled elsewhere.
1464
00:55:16,446 --> 00:55:17,948
SHANKER: Because if you compel public
1465
00:55:17,948 --> 00:55:20,684
schools to educate all children, including the
1466
00:55:20,684 --> 00:55:22,819
most difficult, and if you have other
1467
00:55:22,819 --> 00:55:24,121
schools, that have
1468
00:55:24,121 --> 00:55:25,255
FRIEDMAN: It isn't compelling public schools,
1469
00:55:25,255 --> 00:55:26,089
its compelling parents
1470
00:55:26,089 --> 00:55:27,724
SHANKER: No, no, it's public schools.
1471
00:55:27,724 --> 00:55:30,961
The public school cannot say to a parent,
1472
00:55:30,961 --> 00:55:33,463
"Your child is very difficult. Your child throws
1473
00:55:33,463 --> 00:55:35,165
things. Your child screams & yells.
1474
00:55:35,165 --> 00:55:36,867
Your child takes all the attention
1475
00:55:36,867 --> 00:55:39,503
of the teacher. Therefore, get out and go find
1476
00:55:39,503 --> 00:55:40,437
a private school."
1477
00:55:40,437 --> 00:55:42,606
On the other hand, you have hundreds of
1478
00:55:42,606 --> 00:55:44,141
private schools in this country where when
1479
00:55:44,141 --> 00:55:47,218
they get a very disturbed child, out that child
1480
00:55:47,911 --> 00:55:49,213
goes. And where does that child go?
1481
00:55:49,213 --> 00:55:50,514
The public schools must take him.
1482
00:55:50,514 --> 00:55:51,348
FRIEDMAN: But look at -
1483
00:55:51,348 --> 00:55:52,182
SHANKER: And that's what we have.
1484
00:55:52,182 --> 00:55:54,585
We have one system of schools which cream,
1485
00:55:54,585 --> 00:55:56,987
and which throw out the most difficult --
1486
00:55:56,987 --> 00:55:58,355
you know, it would be like the hospital
1487
00:55:58,355 --> 00:55:59,356
throwing out all the sick patients
1488
00:55:59,356 --> 00:56:00,424
and keeping the healthy ones.
1489
00:56:00,424 --> 00:56:01,558
McKENZIE: Well, there we leave
1490
00:56:01,558 --> 00:56:02,426
this week's discussion.
1491
00:56:02,426 --> 00:56:04,127
We hope you'll join us for the next episode
1492
00:56:04,127 --> 00:56:05,829
of Free to Choose.
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